What is bad: Parent involvement in Children college search process or Lack of it

Applying to College
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<p>My parents were not very involved in my college admissions process, because they are immigrants and just do not know much about what to do. They just helped with what was necessary - my mom insisted on going to an informational meeting/seminar about financial aid so she could be more knowledgeable about it. Every once in a while she mentioned working on my applications (as though I would forget the deadlines :)) and emphasized the importance of personal statement essays. My parents paid for my application and SAT fees. They mentioned visiting colleges, but I did not feel the need to check out the campuses.</p>

<p>As for what they did during my high school years (I am currently a senior): despite her limited English, my mom went with me to meet my teachers during parent-teacher conference nights so she could see how I was doing. My parents urged me to receive several private tutoring sessions (and paid for them) when I was really struggling with a course. </p>

<p>I think that my parents are supportive but definitely not overbearing. Yes, I would appreciate it if I could have discussed my college options with them about things other than just the location, etc., but I know that they did what they could. Everything else was left up to me - I made sure to take the required/recommended classes, joined extracurricular activities, met all deadlines, etc.</p>

<p>My mom's perceptions/thoughts about my college plans sort of changed these past few months. After decisions came out and I didn't get the results I had hoped for, she suggested attending a community college and then transfer. When she thought that I was more distressed than I actually am about my situation, she made sure to let me know that it wasn't the end of the world and that I still have plenty of chances to go where I want. She even mentioned that quite a few people take a year off. Last year I would never have imagined her stating that I should maybe take a year off. </p>

<p>ParentOfIvyHope: I think it is great that you have such a strong interest in your daughter's college plans and future. There is nothing wrong with wanting her to attend prestigious schools. But please make sure not to limit her choices to just ones that you deem good enough. Don't let your own inhibitions and bias interfere when she tells you what she wants. Don't put so much pressure on her so that if she ends up not getting into the schools that she (or you) wants to attend, she would feel horrible. Good luck!</p>

42

<p>"You all need to get off of ParentofIvyHope's back."</p>

<p>Not everyone here is on someone's back. Some of us, including hsmomstef, have tried to be voices of support & reason. </p>

<p>I agree with the OP and daughter that communication may be problematic, but unfortunately perception (as cgm indicated) is part of communication, and thus it was helpful to hear, I think, from the OP and daughter regarding intentions.</p>

<p>QUOTE:
"I'm going to guess from this person's english that they are foreign and not familiar with certain things that are taboo in American culture such as saying that choosing UChicago over Harvard is foolish or letting people know that you have preferences where your child goes to college."</p>

<p>Not being a Chicago-vs-Harvard insider, I have no opinion as to what is "taboo" in that department, and yet the culture is native to me, so I don't think this was the heart of the issue. Withholding tuition was possibly more incendiary than anything else. More students than parents frequent the College Admissions forum, and I can see why there would be many levels of offense taken at the OP's remarks. The OP did not know that the more logical place for some answers might be Parents Forum, where the reactions might be less immediate & more considered. (When I first came to CC, it took me awhile to even realize there was a Parents Forum.)</p>

<p>I am also not aware that American culture frowns upon parental expression of preferences for children's college choices. I have plenty of friends who've said to me, "I've told my D or S that naturally I'd like them to go (or I'd be really pleased if they went) to my Alma Mater, ____, but I think they have other ideas." etc. Or, "I've said I would prefer that they choose the college closer to home, but naturally I'll support whatever their decision is."</p>

43

<p>In the quest to attack the OP's concern about prestige, some of the retorts about the Chicago vs. Harvard pre-med are unnecessarily defensive. Barring special circumstances, like an amazing financial aid offer or a profound sense of "match" with Chicago and a dislike of Harvard's atmosphere, it's <em>clear</em> that Harvard pre-med is preferred, especially from a pragmatic viewpoint. Chicago's notorious grade deflation is -not- helpful in medical school admissions, and though I don't have the exact numbers, its medical school acceptance rate cannot match Harvard's, which easily hovers above 90%. In addition, Harvard pre-meds can be mentored by HMS students, and the networking opportunities trump Chicago's. Obviously, a motivated student can succeed at either school (or ANY school, for that matter), but that doesn't imply that Harvard premed = Chicago premed.</p>

<p>And, about the original topic of the thread, "What Colleges Don't Want You to Know" by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross supports helicopter parenting and parent involvement to the nth degree and offers some helpful college admissions facts. :) I was initially repelled by the extent of some of her advice, but her children were extremely successful. -shrug- Self-motivation and independence are much better, but most students need a <em>slight</em> push onto the right direction.</p>

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<p>Parents involvement is good. I'm involved with my kids education since Kindergarten so I know. In addition, college tuiition comes out of my pocket, it's my money so of course I have to pay attention to where it's going. D's happiness is important but sometimes for kids this age it could be an illusion.</p>

<p>ParentofIvyHope, I know the school the private school that your daughter is going to is very good, I used to look into their website to find out more information to supplement reading material for my daughter. However, I'm surprised at the not so good college admission statistics of your local public high school. I thought it should be better because it is closed to Stanford, isn't it?</p>

<p>Yes, I think another poster is right Harvard is better pre-med school than U Chicago because of the slight better GPA one would get there vs UC, so it's good for pre-med, you intuition is right again.</p>

45

<p>TRFA:</p>

<p>It can be more difficult for a Californian to get into Stanford than for an OOS'er.</p>

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<p>You know, like TooRichForAid said, it's pretty nice of POIH to even be willing to pay for a school priced like Harvard or Chicago. I have so many friends who are unable to go to Ivys or other "Elite schools" because of cost issues when FA was not kind to them. If my father was only willing to pay for one specific $50k-a-year school and not another one I liked, I'd still definitely be more than happy to jump at the opportunity to be able to go to such a school without taking out personal loans or anything like that.</p>

<p>I understand the super type-A parent mentality seems crazy, but it's better to have parents who want you to go to "prestigious" places than parents who aren't willing to help pay at all for expensive schools and force you (after beating the college admissions rat-race) to attend "safeties" (dashing your hopes and dreams) right? I'm not saying that safety schools are bad, but most people, I assume, would prefer to attend a top 20 or so National Uni or top LAC (should they get in) over the average State U if money was not a concern.</p>

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<p>Some of you guys need to stop acting like the Ivies are the end-all be-all of the college admissions world. I would have been very honored to even be accepted into a college such as Chicago. </p>

<p>I didn't apply there, but I applied to a few Ivies and a couple other top colleges, and was rejected or waitlisted at all of them. I am valedictorian of my graduating class this year, president or captain of three organizations this year, four year letterman for varsity swimming, had several other officer titles, and have numerous local and state level awards, along with pretty good test scores. I'm not sure how I could have done any better with what was given to me (underachieving suburban FL school w/ very lackluster guidance department and no research opportunities). </p>

<p>My parents have been pretty involved in my life, at a level I would deem appropriate. They have always pushed me to be a straight A student which I appreciated, but I didn't like some of their criticisms such as chastising me when I quit band (leaving officer positions and 1st chair, but I had to since I was going to be in charge of three other organizations that I liked more) or getting angry when I chose AP Literature over AP Chemistry. I always felt like I was under constant pressure, and I actually did break down and cry on a couple different occasions from all the pressure, which wasn't all from them. If I were to give them advice on what to change for my sister as she starts high school, I would say push her to do her best just like they did me (sometimes it took the fear of what would happen if I didn't do my hwork to actually do it) but let her choose her own EC's, classes, and interests. I hated every minute I spent in band even though I was very talented, and I knew I needed to take AP Literature to work on my reading "weakness" to help boost test scores. It seemed like I was beginning to just do extra stuff like volunteer extra hours or join an extra club just because it was there, not because I was truly passionate about it. They finally did allow me more freedom, and I enjoyed this year being able to focus on swimming and my presidency in NHS.</p>

<p>I never really even considered Ivy Leagues until my 10th grade year when I got an invitation to a Yale informational meeting nearby, that my mother insisted on take me to. I'm actually glad she did, as I immediately fell in love with the school, making it my first choice and striving to become the best possible applicant I could be. My dream never became truly realized, as not only did I not get in, but I did not get anywhere near enough scholarship money to make Yale a financial possibility. With my parents unwilling to use their equity to finance my college expenses in lieu of my younger siblings also needing college education, I applied to as many local and state level scholarships, only to receive $2,000 in funds after applying to over 30, including ones such as Coca-Cola, AAA Travel Challenge, and several essay contests. Because of the looming reality that I wasn't going to get into Yale despite my status as being "most accomplished" from my school, I applied to the University of Florida, the #1 state school, and another local private school that I would be able to swim at. Turns out that I'm going to the local private school, after they offered me $25,000 per year in academic scholarships, on top of Bright Futures and the FRAG. It will be just as cheap as UF. And it also turns out, that I only applied there to spite my mom. She insisted on me not applying there when I mentioned it, because she had never heard of it. When I was invited for a scholarship weekend there, she immediately fell in love with the school, and is now happy that I can attend somewhere with good academics, somewhere that is close to home, and most importantly somewhere that they can afford to send me to.</p>

<p>I really did want to go to an Ivy League, not just to impress my parents (though that was a plus haha). Heck, they were insisting on me going to UF at the beginning of this year because of their newfound bandwagoner love of Gator sports, its proximity, and its price tag. But I chose stuff that I wanted to do (I could NOT have spent another year in band without checking into an insane asylum) including where I was going to apply to college. I am very proud of where I am attending now, and it even has its own level of local prestige, garnering a very positive response from anyone who knows about it. I am also glad that my parents are willing to offset what costs I couldn't come up with in scholarships, so that I can focus on getting EC's and internships before I begin applying to medical school. I plan on applying to top medical schools such as Duke, WashU, and Harvard, as I also plan on applying to Ohio State and all the Florida medical schools, as I know that med school admissions are even harder than undergrad.</p>

48

<p>Here is an additional thought... there are many parents at our school and around the country that pay a councelor to give guidance to their children and assist them in the college search. I have heard that they plan college visits, send reminders about application dates, review essays, brainstorm essays, discuss possible college fits based on interests, assist in search for finiancial aid and other awards, practice one on one for interviews. Some of these advisors are many thousands of dollars. It is clear based on the availablity of these services....that some people feel that they are worthwhile. If I chose to charge my children for my services,(many like the ones mentioned above) would it somehow validate my participation. Is it okay to hire someone but not okay to "hire from within" so to speak?</p>

<p>With that said...whenever I feel (or my children inform me) that I am treading to closely to their boundries, I remember that a wise woman told me once:</p>

<p>"It is our job as parents to shoot the arrow towards the target- we cannot, walk the arrow to the target, it would never stick"</p>

<p>I believe that is from a proverb</p>

<p>One more thing....as parents, if we are paying for something, then we do have the right to have input - my parents paid for my college, I went where they said they could afford, my husband paid for his own education and he went where HE could afford. If the dd of parentofivyhope really wanted to go to UC, she would begin to look for ways she could pull it off....perhaps then mom would soften up. </p>

<p>All of our individual experiences and cultures, and circumstances are different- I always find that no sooner than I judge someone or something....I get to walk in those shoes myself and realize perhaps I was a little to quick....</p>

49

<p>I found a link to this UChicago handbook for Premed students in one of the archived(2004) Chicago threads. I thought this passage was very interesting and highlights something POIH(and others) should understand about the whole med school process. Harvard undergrad doesn't guarantee Harvard med. The reality is that any student at any college who works hard, tests well and shows commitment and spirit has a shot at Harvard med(and all the other top med schools) There are lots of Harvard kids that only get interviews instead of placements. And strangely enough, POIH will find if he researches that plenty of kids from 'bad' schools like Mich are actually the ones taking home the Harvard Med degree.(Imagine that!)</p>

<p>So a small bit of wisdom from crappy Chicago's handbook:</p>

<p>APPLICATION SUCCESS
The good news is that the success of graduates of the College in gaining admission to professional schools is excellent. For example, about 80 to 90 applicants from the College matriculate to allopathic medical schools each year. This accomplishment places the College firmly in the top ten schools nationally for medical school matriculants as a function of undergraduate enrollment size. The success of applicants from the College to other types of professional schools in the health professions is similar. The College is known for having students who have developed exceptional analytical skills, breadth of knowledge, and a penchant for life long learning. Graduates from Chicago also have developed the ability to manage the challenges presented by sometimes overwhelming academic loads in the company of exceptionally bright people. As anyone who has been an undergraduate at Chicago can attest, this is a significant source of accomplishment and pride. Not surprisingly, these are all characteristics sought by professional schools because they are significant correlates of a successful professional career. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that a strong GPA and MCAT are not the sole determinants of entry to professional school. Dr. Al Kirby, the Dean for Admissions at Case Western Reserve Medical School says "GPA and MCAT are like money. You only need enough. Anything beyond that is ostentatious!" Certainly you must make sure that you have "enough." You must also demonstrate: a genuine level of interest in learning and analytical skills in diverse situations; excellent interpersonal skills, balance, energy, commitment and maturity: and a well thought-through decision to make a career in the health professions. Recording your GPA and MCAT on your application is easy. It is important to consider how you will demonstrate these other, more subjective, but equally important attributes on your application. </p>

<p>What is "enough" GPA? Professional schools do understand the rigorous nature of our College curriculum and look carefully at the transcripts of our applicants. In 1998, the National average GPA of those matriculating to allopathic medical schools 3.58; from the College 3.48. This was the lowest for any college in North America, and clearly indicates that the professional schools appreciate and understand the rigor of the curriculum you have experienced here. In 1999, students from Chicago who scored the national average (~8) or higher on each section of the MCAT and had a GPA equal to or greater than the College Deans List (3.25) had a 67% rate of acceptance. With a GPA of 3.30 the acceptance rate was 75%. So, making the Dean's List should be a goal for you. </p>

<p>Applicants from the College with these academic credentials who were not accepted generally failed to have a plan to enhance their personal development and/or explore and test their decision to enter the health professions. Or, they may have excellent grades and MCATS but failed to achieve independence and ownership of their learning. </p>

<p>Accomplishing the necessary academic, personal, and career preparation requires commitment to a well-considered plan.</p>

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<p>" I thought this passage was very interesting and highlights something POIH(and others) should understand about the whole med school process. Harvard undergrad doesn't guarantee Harvard med. The reality is that any student at any college who works hard, tests well and shows commitment and spirit has a shot at Harvard med(and all the other top med schools)"</p>

<p>I don't think anyone on this thread said that Harvard undergraduate guaranteed HMS... Of course any hardworking premed, regardless of undergrad school, can get into any medical school; that's not the point. But, just because a premed CAN get into HMS from a State U. or Chicago or wherever doesn't make the premed experience at those schools better than Harvard's ON AVERAGE. And it's not just prestige that makes premed opportunities better; Caltech, though a highly ranked school, is usually NOT a good choice. Chicago's acceptance rate, while high, is significantly lower than Harvard's. And, a more telling statistic would be "What is the attrition rate of premeds at Chicago?" How many people are weeded out by its curriculum?</p>

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<p>Here's the suggested curriculum for 'premeds' off Chicago's site: </p>

<p><a href="http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=400%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/level3.asp?id=400&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And for what it's worth Tabula, you come off as very dismissive of any program other than Harvard's. A quick look at:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mdapplicants.com/selectschool.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mdapplicants.com/selectschool.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>should demonstrate that there are many, many fine premed programs out there who consistently equal Harvard in sending their students who want to be doctors on to med school. There are probably fewer students at Caltech and Chicago simply because those kids are more hooked into research. That doesn't mean the students who do desire med school are somehow being deprived of a rigorous preparation, in fact you could assume that Chicago's core might help in admissions. Remember, the most important part of med school admissions is that part that no school can really help a student with....the test to see if the student has what it takes. What drives them to be a doctor? Are they after the prestige and all the trappings, or are they possessed with that certain something they'll need to become doctors.</p>

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<p>I definitely agree with 2by2 about giving parents the right to get involve in their child's education if they are the ones paying for it. It's there money. Sure, their ideas might clash with yours but as a parent, you are still under their responsibility and care. </p>

<p>I personally would have liked it if my parents were involved in my college search process. I'm a first generation college student and an immigrant. My parents don't speak a word of English, and they don't know anything about American colleges. Actually, they've never went to college, let alone high school. Fortunately for me, I was able to make my own decision about which college I'll be attending next year, but that doesn't work out for everyone because making such a decision is one of the hardest choices in one's life. My mother didn't have the college talk with me until February -- a month after I sent all my applications. That was when she finally asked me about where I applied. Maybe it was out of fear and worry. Or maybe it was because she trusted my instincts. Regardless, I would have appreciated it if my parents were more actively involved with my search because I was completely lost. I didn't know where to begin when it came to researching about colleges. Heck, I didn't even know why I applied to the schools that I did.</p>

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<p>hi op</p>

<p>are you chinese? just curious b/c u sound very typical</p>

<p>and yes i do think you are involved too much, regardless of ur race</p>

<p>if ur kid is good enuf, she/he will get in
if not, pushing is useless =)</p>

54

<p>Hey, if spanking works, I'll be glad to do it. Just kiddddinnnnnnnnnnnng!</p>

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<p>My parents weren't at all involved in the process, not one bit. I have a very loving relationship with my parents, and we're a very tight-knit family, but they couldn't tell you all the schools I applied to. I wouldn't have had it any other way, and it turned out alright.</p>

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<p>The answer depends upon the high school. If the high school has a very involved programme to help students prepare for college, less parental involvement is necessary. My parents have never pushed anything related to college on me, and I am extremely self-motivated towards this task. However, even if I wasn't, my school has a support system that would help me out throughout the entire thing.</p>

<p>I have been very blessed with my parents in this process. They will take me to look at whatever colleges I want to, will pay for SAT tutoring, will pay my application fees, and are generally on stand-by to help me when I ask. They also respect my judgement and will give detailed opinions on colleges only when asked, but will tell me when asked. I think a major contributor to this was my school's involvement with my parents regarding the admissions process. It wasn't school to child to parent, it was school to child, school to PARENT, and parent to child. My school helped my parents deeply understand the process, relax about it, and be prepared. Their relaxed readiness helps me a lot.</p>

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<p>Post #56 also makes some good points, distinguishing between helpful counseling departments & passive or detached ones. This is in fact why parents at my D's school had to get into the act more. Shockingly, even though it is a wealthy school by most standards, the GC is not terribly well informed, often is not timely about providing info about critical aspects of preparation, testing, etc. And she knows Zero about elite college admissions. Zero. The parents know a lot more, & partly because they've had to teach themselves about the process.</p>

<p>But it is really, really important for the parent(s) to get informed first, before providing such assistance to students. Otherwise, it will be the Blind Leading the Blind. For example, it's important to know just how limited "rankings" are. It could be important to at least be aware of the values in an excellent LAC such as Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, and the Pomona Colleges. Some students then decide to rule those out, because they want a larger environment or a full research university, but when POIH said that you want a quality education (more than prestige), those LAC's provide an awesome quality education, yet they were not on your list.</p>

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<p>I look at the college search like clothes shopping, if parents are paying, we have some say, but we can't put a mumu on someone who is the mini skirt type</p>

<p>Or think of it eating out, I may love cheese, but my D may hate it, but we both may like pasta</p>

<p>You can't push and force tastes and like, you can suggest that the purple platforms aren't a good fit, that the purple heels may be better, but if they like purple....</p>

<p>We are talking in cirles sometimes</p>

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<p>This has hijacked the original intent of the thread. But, my point was definitely not that Harvard premed is the best in the country--just that Harvard premed, disregarding special circumstances, is obviously better than CHICAGO'S. This is my last post on Harvard vs Chicago premed; looking at past posts, ramses 2 is a Chicago cheerleader, so debating is a moot point.</p>

<p>Of course, medical school admissions depend primarily on the applicant and not his/her undergraduate school. But, some schools (Williams, Pomona, HYP, Brown--the list goes on and on) have better premed advising and are more helpful in medical school admissions than other schools (Caltech, Chicago). </p>

<p>"There are probably fewer students at Caltech and Chicago simply because those kids are more hooked into research. That doesn't mean the students who do desire med school are somehow being deprived of a rigorous preparation."</p>

<p>^ That statement is blatantly false and misleading. Premeds at Caltech are not deprived of a rigorous preparation; rather, their extremely rigorous Core --> lower GPAs --> lower acceptance rate into medical schools. The Core has amazing benefits, but its cons include reduced chances into medical school. Talk to the Caltech students roaming CC instead of making unfounded statements; they'll say that Caltech is not necessarily the best place for premeds.</p>

<p>Edit: Unlike ramses's attachment to Chicago, I have no connection to Harvard and am unbiased. Actually, I go to Yale, so this is sacrilege. ;) And an effective procrastination tool.</p>

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<p>Well...I worked with a couple of Ivy graduates whose parents couldn't help them bc of lack of English language skills, education, money and so forth... I learned to really respect them to make it without any help. So I wonder if they have more merit that someone has highly educated parents with enough financial resources...just a thought...</p>