<p>i still need to understand this as a parent? some have said it a dual degree? some have said you can decide to graduate from Columbia? some have said you cant transfer to Columbia?</p>
<p>there are many reasons to choose a college, so this is only one small question, but important to me: what will it say on my daughters diploma? what will it say when employers verify diploma?</p>
<p>thanks for your replies</p>
<p>The Barnard diploma says, in essence (and in latin) that the graduate has a degree from Barnard College of Columbia University. It has the signature of the president of Barnard as well as the Columbia UNIVERSITY president. </p>
<p>It’s NOT a “dual degree”. I suppose a student could transfer to Columbia College, but given the very restrictive basic requirements there (The “core”), I imagine it would be pretty difficult to graduate anywhere near in four years after doing so. A Barnard student can and does take many courses at Columbia, however. Some degrees are offered only through Columbia, as a matter of fact. And some Columbia degrees are offered only through Barnard. But a student who graduates from Barnard graduates with a Barnard (of Columbia UNIVERSITY) diploma. You cannot decide to graduate from Columbia (COLLEGE). </p>
<p>If your daughter wants to have the rigor and structure of the Core and a diploma that says she graduated from Columbia College of Columbia University, she should apply to Columbia College of Columbia University. If she wants a smaller Liberal Arts college “feel” with all the resources of Columbia University, and a diploma that says she graduated from Barnard College of Columbia University, she should apply to Barnard.</p>
<p>I know it seems VERY confusing. And having one of the several undergraduate institutions of Columbia University (including the Fu Foundation Engineering college, Columbia, school of General Studies, and Barnard) named COLUMBIA (like the university) does not help with the confusion.</p>
<p>A photo of the diploma was posted here: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/11597429-post11.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/11597429-post11.html</a></p>
<p>Barnard is one of four undergraduate colleges at Columbia University, and differs from the others in that it is an “affiliate” rather than a direct subsidiary. This is due to a historical artifact, going back to the late 1880’s when Barnard was first established as a way of enabling women to earn a Columbia degree, but the men who ran Columbia were unwilling to sanction co-ed education. </p>
<p>For roughly the next 90 years, Barnard was generally understood as being the woman’s college at Columbia, which accepted only males into its undergraduate programs. Up until about 1970, this was pretty much business-as-usual at many American colleges – at Harvard, women attended Radcliffe; at Tulane, women attended Sophie Newcomb, etc. </p>
<p>The confusing part happened in in the early 1980’s, when Columbia realized it needed to get with the times and admit women, but Barnard was unwilling to merge, largely out of concern for preserving hard-fought faculty tenure battles.</p>
<p>I really didn’t quite understand the whole thing myself until I actually attended a Columbia graduation – and then it all became very clear to me. Nobody graduates from “Columbia University” alone – rather, Columbia University confers both graduate and undergraduate degrees on students upon the recommendation of their respective “faculties”. So to get a degree from Columbia U., a student needs to be affiliated with some “faculty”. Barnard is one of the respective faculties. </p>
<p>ALL Columbia degrees also specify which school – or faculty - the student studied under. </p>
<p>Employers understand that there is a relationship between Barnard & Columbia – if anything, they are less aware of the distinction. That is, many older people (age 60+) still have the mindset that Barnard=Columbia College for Women, and may not realize that women who graduate from Columbia College are not Barnard students. </p>
<p>I assume that most Barnard grads list both on their resume – either writing “Barnard College of Columbia University”, or “Columbia University (Barnard College)” – or something similar. </p>
<p>If an employer wants to verify graduation, they need to do so via the National Student Clearinghouse – see [Degree</a> Verification | Columbia University Registrar](<a href=“http://registrar.columbia.edu/employers-insurers/degree-verification]Degree”>Certifications | Office of the University Registrar) and [DegreeVerify</a> School Participants](<a href=“http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify/dv_ParticipatingSchools.asp]DegreeVerify”>http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify/dv_ParticipatingSchools.asp) Both Barnard & Columbia participate in the clearinghouse, which maintains data for all participating schools.</p>
<p>These are valid questions, and yes, it will say Barnard College, Columbia University on Barnard diplomas, but at the same time, please understand that Barnard College is not a substitute for Columbia College. While both colleges are wonderful and Barnard women can (and most likely will) take classes at Columbia University, Columbia University is not Columbia College. There are many colleges / graduate schools affiliated with and under Columbia University, and Columbia College is one of them. It’s a big university! There is also a General Studies school that has students from 19 to 70+ years old as students, and SEAS, which is the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences.</p>
<p>I love Barnard! I love how well they treat me and how many nice girls I’ve met in the cafeteria, through events, classes, my residence hall, and random run-ins. I also love the classes, which range from small seminars to huge lectures. That said, as a first-year Barnard student, it can be frustrating to know how to define myself in that Columbia University community since the lines are so blurred. That is a common feeling among my friends, and we all have different definitions for the Barnard-Columbia relationship. On the other hand, I am a very proud Barnard student. As a part of the University, I have dozens of libraries to choose from, a variety of places to eat at, and countless events and clubs to attend, but I am a Barnard student at the core. Nine times out of ten, I choose the Barnard library and the Barnard cafeteria. I just want to stress that the students who choose Barnard do want to be at Barnard, and of course, Columbia University is a great advantage, but at the end of four years, we went to Barnard College, not Columbia College.</p>
<p>I was a little worried about the Barnard-Columbia relationship when I first applied, but I’ve found that I love Barnard! I enjoy the diversity of age and genders in my classes, two of which are at Columbia University right now, and it’s wonderful to be surrounded by bright, interesting Barnard women. Let your daughter know that Barnard College is wonderful in its own right. I’m sure you want your daughter to be happy wherever she goes, so I’d suggest spending a weekend with us at Barnard, and seeing how our identity differs from Columbia’s and other colleges. At the end, it’s not the college’s name that really matters. Barnard, like small liberal-arts colleges, is wonderful in its own right. She should choose the college she’d likes the most, and not worry about how employers will judge her. There are only a few ivy-league schools, after all, and many, many wonderful non-ivy-league ones.</p>
<p>
Just a technical point – but again, the diplomas do NOT say that.</p>
<p>At the top, in very big print, are the words:</p>
<p>“CURATORES UNIVERSITATIS COLUMBIAE” (Trustees of Columbia University)</p>
<p>Then in a smaller font, center/bottom – about 9 lines down – you find the words,
“ET PRAESIDIS COLLEGII BARNARDINI” (and the President of Barnard College)</p>
<p>And at the very bottom are the seals of both Columbia University and Barnard College, as well as the signatures of their respective Presidents.</p>
<p>So there is reference to both “Columbia University” and “Barnard College”… but not on the same line. </p>
<p>“Barnard College, Columbia University” does seem to appear and just about every piece of mail I get from the college (warning: they won’t stop sending mail just because your kid graduates) – but it’s not set out that way on the diploma and certainly not in that order. </p>
<p>Or to put it another way, if a woman graduates from Barnard, gets her diploma framed, and puts it up on a wall in her office behind her desk – someone on the other side of the desk will probably be able to read the “Columbia University” part but it’s unlikely that they would be able to make out the “Barnard” part from 10 feet away. (Disclaimer: I haven’t actually tried this – but in any case the Barnard part is buried in the middle of a lot of other text and hard to find – I doubt that most people who see a diploma displayed that way would be reading past the title line). </p>
<p>(The day my d. graduated she had the diploma framed and also bought a Barnard College sweatshirt – so there was definitely some school pride there. And probably more people will see the sweatshirt than will ever see the diploma. She’s got a bio posted on her employer’s web site that references Barnard, not Columbia – so this isn’t a matter of trying to mislead anyone.).</p>
<p>"…someone on the other side of the desk will probably be able to read the “Columbia University” part but it’s unlikely that they would be able to make out the “Barnard” part from 10 feet away. (Disclaimer: I haven’t actually tried this – but in any case the Barnard part is buried in the middle of a lot of other text and hard to find – "</p>
<p>Moreover, it’s all in Latin !!!</p>
<p>In any case, I haven’t seen where my daughter works these days, but at best she’s got a cubicle and not an office – definitely no place to hang a diploma! </p>
<p>FWIW, the LinkedIn profile lists Barnard (not Columbia) under “Education” – but “Columbia U” shows up in several different contexts in under “Experience” and “Activities and Associations”.</p>
<p>I just don’t think the distinction is a big deal in the minds of post-grads.</p>
<p>Thanks for the correction, Calmom. I guess I misremembered the diploma I saw (my mind must have just passed over the Latin and gotten “Barnard College, Columbia University” from it.)</p>
<p>To go beyond that question (again, my favorite topic of discussion), there’s certainly a strong connection between BC and CU, but they’re not interchangeable. Barnard College doesn’t fade away as the year progresses to be replaced by a general Columbia-shaped aura of education. I have heard of Barnard students transferring to Columbia College, but that’s not generally a welcomed thought from Barnard girls. A majority of us enrolled for the specific benefits that Barnard had to offer. You can see the other Barnard-identity musings in my previous post. :)</p>
<p>I wish your daughter the best of luck!</p>
<p>Found this discussion very helpful as
my daughter will attend Barnard this Fall.</p>
<p>I would love to “talk” w/ other Barnard moms. If you are out there send me a note!</p>
<p>Best wishes,
PrepMother</p>
<p>Welcome, PrepMother – I think that most of us old-timer Barnard moms on cc are now the parents of Barnard alums – but we’d be happy to answer any questions you might have.</p>
<p>Yep, agree with Calmom. Another parent of a Barnard grad here. My D graduated in 09.</p>
<p>My daughter was just accepted at Barnard and rejected at Columbia. Let’s be honest: She loves Columbia and followed advise that applying to Barnard would be a girls-only second chance or a back way in. Neither she nor I are especially enamored of Barnard, but she’s thinking now that she could spend enough time taking Columbia classes to make it worthwhile, and afterward she could say she went to “Columbia”.</p>
<p>Specifically, would it be deceptive for her to put on a resume that she graduated from “Columbia University”? More generally, is this a viable strategy?</p>
<p>^ ■■■■■
(my apologies if I’m mistaken)</p>
<p>I’m not trying to provoke. I’m being honest about our situation. Surely there must be some women at Barnard who would rather have been on the other side of Broadway. And, just as surely, it’s entirely possible that my daughter would grow to appreciate being at Barnard. All I’m saying is that a little birdie whispered that there was this secret back door and, lo and behold, it turned out to be true.</p>
<p>Should we go through?</p>
<p>I think it would be somewhat deceptive, but I don’t see that as the biggest problem. Most Barnard women are fiercely proud of their school and don’t want to be across the street. My D certainly didn’t. She mentions Columbia only when someone has absolutely not heard of Barnard. I think your D’s attitude might put her at odds with her peers. I don’t think it’s the best idea to grudgingly attend Barnard to pretend she’s at Columbia. What are her other choices?</p>
<p>Thanks for your response, mythmom. Her other options are Wesleyan, Georgetown, or a free ride at University of Maryland Honors College.</p>
<p>Have you and your D visited Barnard? Is she highly attracted to Columbia’s Core, and not Barnard’s Nine Ways? Because she would not be able to take the Core. </p>
<p>Barnard is NOT a “back door” to Columbia and I hate that anyone told you that. If your D truly will be always trying to make herself out to be a COLUMBIA student (implying Columbia College, not the general Columbia University student body, of which she most certainly WILL be a part as a Barnard student), then she probably needs to take advantage of one of her other excellent opportunities.</p>
<p>And yes, only putting “Columbia University” on a resume would be deceptive. “Barnard College at Columbia University” is, however, entirely accurate. If she actually attended Barnard, though, I would be willing to bet that she would quickly decide on her own that she is happy and proud to attend Barnard.</p>
<p>My D was initially attracted to Columbia. But when she visited Barnard, interviewed and took the tour, she quickly changed her mind! Has not regretted that a day since!</p>
<p>To ProudandConfused, the reason that you were pegged a “■■■■■” is that you asked a question that makes no sense. Why would any person be so stupid as to send off a misleading resume to an employer? The first thing the employer will do in the hiring process is check the references – many employers may also want to see a college transcript. And of course the student is going to want to be able to list references or submit letters of recommendation from profs. The advantage Barnard students have is that they tend to have close relationships with many of their faculty — but the “Barnard” name printed on the professor’s letterhead is going to be a dead giveaway. </p>
<p>Do you think any employer is going to hire an applicant who lies on their resume? I mean, a little bit of puffery is normal, but it’s pretty stupid for any job applicant to lie about basic facts that can be easily checked. </p>
<p>I realize that you’ve probably picked up on the myth spread by disgruntled Columbia students on the internet … but my point is that a little bit of critical thinking quickly dispels the myth. </p>
<p>And I agree with the other parents here - it also makes no sense for a student to attend a school she doesn’t like so she can pretend she is going somewhere else.</p>
<p>Proudandconfused: Your daughter has awesome choices!! Lucky her! Georgetown is in an awesome part of DC and Wes is a wonderful LAC. A full ride to a great public is wonderful too. Your D shouldn’t have too feel like second best with those choices. I know my D never did at Barnard, but everyone is different. She felt brilliant to have stumbled onto a well kept secret – that for her Barnard was way cooler than Columbia.</p>