What is it with Science Majors?

College Majors Science Majors
21

<p>churchmusicmom…
your daughter probably saw that the jobs she could get look like this</p>

<p>Aerotek Scientific
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Category: Scientific Jobs
Rate: $14.00 to $15.00 per Hour
Job Type: Contract-to-Hire
Posting ID: 2593024
Posting Date: 7/2/2012</p>

<p>Must have BS in Chemistry/Biology
Shift M-F - 8am to 5pm with overtime available</p>

<p>Responsibilities:

  • Performs routine tasks that occur in the lab under supervision
  • May revise documents under the direction of supervision
  • May perform non-routine tasks under the direction of supervision
    Demonstrated Knowledge, Skills and Characteristics:
  • Developing competence to complete routine tasks
  • Developing basic level understanding of cGMPs
  • Developing understanding of basic analytical techniques such as:
  • HPLC
  • Dissolution
  • UV/Vis
  • FTIR
  • SPE
  • Sample Preparation Techniques
  • GC
  • Titration/ Electrode Chemistry
  • Others as appropriate
  • Developing oral and written communication skills
  • Accountable and fair to co-workers
  • Maintains proper social etiquette and self-control when dealing with stressful situations.
    Education:
  • BS/MS in chemistry or related field</p>

<p>and opted for the PhD thinking the job prospects are better. However, that is not the case. Their is a huge glut of science PhD’s especially in the life sciences. As a result, most after they graduate end up in post-doc limbo going from one post doc to another until they hit 40, their career dead ends and they have to start over with a career change. Come back when your daughter graduates as you really not qualified to speak on what it is like finding a job with a science degree yet. Everyone was filled with optimism and enjoyed science as a student. It is not as enjoyable when you graduate and have reality brutally beat into you by the job market.</p>

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<p>BTW I am a chemistry major with a graduate degree not a biology major though I was heavy into biochem I don’t even bother to use any of that as it is even worse trying to get a job with a biology major than with a chemistry major though chemistry isn’t much better.</p>

<p>Here is a survey by the American Chemical Society
[Chemjobber:</a> Well, that’s not good news](<a href=“http://chemjobber.blogspot.com/2011/03/well-thats-not-good-news.html]Chemjobber:”>Chemjobber: Well, that's not good news)</p>

<p>There is 15-20% flat out unemployment but what is discerned from the survey is even more troubling. Only 40% of all chemistry graduates are employed full time. Even worse than that more than 1/2 of that 40% are in academia where at the BS/MS level you are talking about dead end technician jobs with very poor pay and no prospects for advancement. Also at the PhD level in academia a minority are tenured professors most are adjunct professors or post-docs which aloo are not a stable nor decent paying position.</p>

23

<p>dheldreth</p>

<p>Just because there is a long list of possible job titles or specialties is not an indicator of a healthy scientific job market. Just how many Herpetologists and Musical acoustics scientists do you think are hired by industry in the USA and Other than tenured professor most of the jobs in academia are total crap in terms of pay and advancement potential. Also, you need to have very specific scientific training and experience to pursue what few jobs there are in such a specific field. So say you get a PhD in herpetology. There may be a job opening every few months that is appropriate to you and there are several hundred other herpetologists applying for it. </p>

<p>Tenure track jobs as I previously mentioned are in very short supply and there are 100’s of PhD’s pursuing every one.</p>

<p>There seem to be a lot of parents and students that have joined this thread and are parroting propaganda and optimism when they have no real world knowledge of the science job market.</p>

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<p>This would be a fine example of thread-hijacking.</p>

<p>Sschoe2, I’m sorry you haven’t gotten a job, but some of us scientists are doing just fine. Churchmusicmom, congratulations to your daughter for finding something she loves to do, and I wish her the best in her new degree program.</p>

<ul>
<li>1-month-from-finishing Ph.D. in climate science, got my pick of job offers with great pay and benefits, moving to New York City. Does that make me <em>qualified</em> to speak to finding a job with a science degree?</li>
</ul>

25

<p>Actually I do have a pretty good job in science in the food industry. I had to work like heck and it took me 3 years and over 2 dozen interviews to get it. I also consider myself almost an expert in terms of the job market for science majors in the USA. </p>

<p>Given the trends I am seeing, the experience I and all my colleagues have had I absolutely cannot recommend it to others. Almost all major employers that hire scientists are in bad shape and I do not think they will recover in anytime in the near future. Pharma especially has been laying off in droves, moving most scientific functions to China and India, and using the glut of scientists remaining to offer obscenely low pay and forcing scientists to work on contract where they receive no benefits, raises, career development. Most of my colleagues have career changed out of the field or went into teaching and I think when I inevitably get laid off of my current job that is what I will end up having to do.</p>

26

<p>@the guy that is complaining about military spending</p>

<p>Did you know that the US military sector hires, and pays well, many more excellent scientists than does NASA? As do other unglamorous sectors such as oil and mining, agriculture.</p>

<p>Perhaps scientists would benefit most by understanding their place in the world and whom they can offer what they can offer in return for the 6 figure salaries they think they deserve.</p>

27

<p>My conclusion from all of these statistics:</p>

<p>If you’re average, don’t become a scientist. </p>

<p>If you’re a scientist, don’t be average. </p>

<p>For those of you well above average, science can be very rewarding. </p>

<p>Don’t let the naysayers keep you from what you love.</p>

28

<p>SSchoe2, I am happy that you consider yourself “almost” an expert on the scientific job market. I would believe that you are an expert in your own circumstances, in your own little corner of the science world. But saying there are no jobs for any scientists anywhere is patently false, and worse, tiresome.</p>

<p>For comparison, I applied to a handful of jobs when I stumbled across them over the last few months of finishing my degree (since I’ve been mainly focused on, well, finishing my degree). I received 2 interviews, and 2 offers, and picked the one that best suited me.</p>

<p>As for the academic job market, is it incredibly competitive? Of course. So is Harvard. But do we complain about the overproduction of successful high school students who have led to a glut of competition at Harvard, then apply over and over again to Harvard for years until leaving idea of college entirely to go spam internet boards? Obviously not - people might apply to Harvard, but they also have some other options that make them happy (or they might not apply to Harvard at all, because some lesser-known options are a better fit).</p>

<p>Just because someone didn’t get into Harvard, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t go to college. Just because someone didn’t get a tenure-track academic job, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t go into science.</p>

<p>I know, I know - you probably applied to 3759 non-academic jobs, and got one of them by the skin of your teeth, which you could lose at any moment. Maybe YOUR little slice of the science world is in terrible shape. (One could come up with some alternative hypotheses here…) But please stop trying to speak for the rest of us. My own little slice, earth science, is thriving.</p>

29

<p>I am not saying there are no jobs for scientists anywhere. I am saying in the US there are increasingly few jobs for scientists relative to the number of highly trained scientists and as a result there is much higher than average unemployment and also as a result companies are getting away with treating them like dirt such as paying them $15 an hour and not providing benefits and making them work under a contract agency to shield themselves from employer laws.</p>

<p>If you disagree then make an argument don’t distort what I’ve said to sound ridiculous because you are unable.</p>

30

<p>BTW Musicguru it isn’t thread hijacking just because you don’t like my answer to the question posed by the OP. Thread hijacking is completely altering the topic of a thread not engaging in a discussion on topic.</p>

31

<p>

I hate to give you more ammunition, but there is an updated version of the C&EN survey out, and the numbers are worse not better:
[Starting</a> Salaries | June 4, 2012 Issue - Vol. 90 Issue 23 | Chemical & Engineering News](<a href=“http://cen.acs.org/articles/90/i23/Starting-Salaries.html]Starting”>http://cen.acs.org/articles/90/i23/Starting-Salaries.html)</p>

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<p>sschoe2 - Maybe you aren’t thread hijacking, but you’re not helpful, because there are posters here who really like science, and want some possibilites, not just the negativity you espouse. </p>

<p>“There seem to be a lot of parents and students that have joined this thread and are parroting propaganda and optimism when they have no real world knowledge of the science job market.”</p>

<p>You say people just don’t like your answers, but claiming that those that disagree with you are “parroting propaganda and optimism” is quite adversarial, and based on an unfounded opinion of where other people are coming from.</p>

<p>No real world knowledge? I have worked in hospital microbiology laboratories, the HIV/hepatitis lab at the American Red Cross, the Dairy Microbiology Laboratory at a state Department of Agriculture lab, I have taught a variety of science courses from middle school to college level. My husband is a veterinarian who has worked with small animals, large animals, ostriches when ostrich farming was all the rage, and zoo animals. He teaches in college herpetology, mammology, parasitology, A&P. Are we rich? No, but very comfortable financially, and have both truly enjoyed our professional lives. No propaganda here, just reality. it IS possible to have a satisfying career in science. </p>

<p>For those who would like a little positivity, the following is a great TED talk by E.O. Wilson, a quite renowned professor of Biology at Harvard, on “Advice to Young Scientists”. As he says, “We need you badly”, and he is talking about at all levels of scientific work, not just the PhDs.</p>

<p>[E.O</a>. Wilson: Advice to young scientists | Video on TED.com](<a href=“http://www.ted.com/talks/e_o_wilson_advice_to_young_scientists.html]E.O”>http://www.ted.com/talks/e_o_wilson_advice_to_young_scientists.html)</p>

33

<p>It seems fashionable here to beat up on sschoe2, but he is pretty dead-on correct WHEN IT COMES TO JOBS IN CHEMISTRY.</p>

<p>As ucbalumnus said, not all science careers are created equal. Career prospects in the science are wildly uneven, and you do “science” majors a disservice to treat all prospects in all fields as interchangeable. </p>

<p>In sschoe2’s defense, the job market in climate science or neuroscience is not the same as it is in chemistry. In some subspecialties of chemistry - I’m thinking organic or medicinal chemistry - the prospects are horrible, mainly due to outsourcing and layoffs in the pharma industry.</p>

<p>This is not negativity - it’s pretty much the truth FOR CHEMISTS. If you are a potential CHEMISTRY MAJOR, then you need to look at those links to the ACS job numbers or read Derek Lowe’s and Chemjobber’s blog.</p>

<p>I used to be a lab chemist whose job (heck, our entire research site!!) with a Major Pharmaceutical Company was eliminated and outsourced. (Oh, and Classic Rocker Dad -I was actually an excellent chemist. I won national awards for my work, but that didn’t help much with the job hunt.)</p>

<p>I miss that work every day. Oh, well, live and learn! My only points are these: someone’s experience in one branch of science may not apply to another branch. And just being good in something is no guarantee that you will be successfully employed in it, especially over the long term. Just go into a science career (well, ANY career, actually) with your eyes wide open.</p>

34

<p>Scout59, this is really off topic, but I think I saw in a thread I read yesterday that you are completing certification to teach high school Chemistry. I did this 15 years ago (teach Biology, not Chemistry), and I still love it. I get excited to start each new school year! I hope you enjoy teaching. Because of your real world experience in Chemistry, you will have a lot to offer students. I weave my previous work experiences into many of our topics (infectious disease is particulary fascinating to me) and it really makes a difference to students. Good luck!</p>

35

<p>There are tons of science jobs. In fact, at the state public health lab the discussion was ongoing regarding the huge numbers of those about to retire. As a hiring manager in biotech I was always looking for the rare bio major with cell culture experience.</p>

<p>So, my suggestion is to find specialty courses like molecular bio and bacteriology and then get a part time college job/full time summer job in a lab. Develop those skills even if you are making very little money. Then the state lab or biotech will hire you.</p>

<p>Or obtain a Med Tech degree. These are always in demand. And there is nothing wrong with working on an MS degree in the sciences. Often, with lab experience, you will be in a stronger position for being hired and for promotion. Quite often Ph.D.s are over qualified.</p>

<p>If you are willing to go where the jobs are, I say follow your passion.</p>

36

<p>The State labs are low paying and they are doing away with the nice pensions and job security that used to be the one feature that attracted people to work for them. Also there are tons of biologists with cell culture experience, including myself. I cultured E. Coli, sf9 (insect), yeast, and mammalian cells (HEK, NIH 3T3, COS 7, Jurkat T cells and many others over several years. It is not a skill in high demand. I sought out such jobs but I had more success pursuing jobs related to my chemistry training which as I said isn’t a whole lot better. Biology is significant;y worse than chemistry for jobs despite what the BLS says.</p>

<p>Med Technologist requires a BS, a year of rotations where you aren’t earning anything and in many states a certification. After all that the pay is from $38-55k pretty mediocre. Med techs are at the bottom of the health care totem pole, the doctors treat them like crap very often, the job involves a lot of shift, weekend, and Holiday work, there is not much room for advancement. Med techs with 20 years of experience don’t earn a whole lot more than fresh grads. Many hospitals in states without certification requirement hire technicians rather than technologists which cost much less. There are many medical fields that require less training and have better pay and conditions. There is a good reason hospital have difficulty recruiting for the position.</p>

<p>Anytime you hear someone complain about a shortage of labor it is typically a result of poor pay and benefits, poor working conditions, or insane hiring standards.</p>

37

<p>dheldreth I don’t know what to tell you. I have worked in industry for many years now and interact with a lot of industry scientists. Noone who is actually in the field would make statements along the lines that it is a great or even decent paying position nor that it is anything other than insanely hard to get a good job in the field. My previous company new that full well as do many of the other companies. That is why they were able to get away with keeping them on contract with no benefits year after year. They contractors typically stayed 2-4 years until they gave up the field and went back to school or career changed or yes once in a blue moon they got a good job with benefits and it was like they won publishers clearing house it was such an accomplishment just to get a stinking job as it was with myself.</p>

<p>The stats I posted previously also illustrate this. Less than 40% of graduates have full time jobs and less than 20% have decent ones.</p>

<p>Your Husband has a professional degree and as I have always maintained that is the only worthwhile reason to get a science degree<br>
to go to professional school. As for yourself, have you had to search for a job lately other than teaching? Things have rapidly deteriorated over the past decade with outsourcing.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing_science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L[/url]”>http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing_science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>sschoe2, I don’t doubt that times are tougher out there now than the last time I looked for a job. But it isn’t only tough in science, I guess that is what I think students choosing a career path should know. It will be much harder to find a good job in many different fields, so you may as well choose something that you like, because typically you are going to be better at and therefore a preferred employee in something you have a passion for. My older D graduated from UG in 2010, and many of her classmates who did not go on to graduate school struggled to find a well paying job right out of college in their selected field, no matter what it was. My older D went to law school - now there’s a career that gets hammered more than science! There are droves of posters on CC that would tell her she is crazy. However I KNOW her, and suffice it to say it is what she was meant to be. </p>

<p>BTW, my undergrad degree was in Medical Technology! While I would agree with some of the things you say about med techs, my personal experience was very positive. For me, the salary was sufficient, and rather than staying the same almost tripled over 14 years. I don’t know if you have ever worked in a hospital, but med techs aren’t “the bottom of the totem pole”. Most employees understand the expertise of different allied health professionals, and use that. The physicians in the hospitals I worked in never treated me or my colleagues like crap. They would come to the lab, talk to us about cases, invite us to lectures on various medical topics. Now there were some old school doctors who treated everybody who wasn’t an MD like crap, but those dinosaurs are disappearing. And working shift work, holidays, weekends? That goes with the territory in health professions that are needed 24/7, and if someone didn’t know that going in, they really didn’t do any research!</p>

<p>What was great about being a med tech is that you have a set of skills that are valued by a lot of different employers, not just hospitals. Anywhere we moved or anytime I just wanted to change jobs, I was able to find one immediately. We moved to the middle of nowhere for a couple of years, not a hospital around, but the Dept of Agriculture lab hired me to work as a dairy microbiologist. I did not know how to do any of the tests they did, but they felt that I could do the job because of my background. I recently took a course at a genetic testing center that is located in a rural area. The geneticists there said they prefer to hire a med techs because of their lab skills, but they are hard to find out there. If I had wanted to quit teaching and move, I would have had a job. </p>

<p>It seems you’ve had a hard time professionally, and you make some valid points. I agree it is more difficult for a PhD in research, and going in with that knowledge and eyes open is important But if you look around CC, you’ll see posters quoting statistics saying almost every field is crappy! One could be completely immobilized from ever choosing a career if they focus only on the statistics. Maybe I am “parroting optimism”, but I’m not interested in the alternative. Negativity radiates like a toxin from those attached to it, and I have seen first hand that given a choice, employers would much rather hire a person who has a positive outlook rather than negative.</p>

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<p>The pharma market IS atrocious right now…I gave up trying to find a job in that specific area with my M.S. in Biotech after getting 0 bites. However, there are people hiring out there, but it may not be what you feel you’re ‘entitled’ to get. That’s the problem with my generation, everyone feels they are entitled to start off at a 6 figure salary with a glut of vacation days, no holidays, no shifts. Guess what…you’re not. </p>

<p>Being a science major means getting creative with your job search. I got an interview with a financial services consulting firm despite having 0 financial experience and not even having had an accounting class because they felt that technical majors were more able to learn on the job and could adapt to their changing needs. I chose not to take that job because I had better offers, but getting creative works.</p>

40

<p>I am a current PhD-track graduate student in a Biomedical related field and here is my opinion on the matter. If you graduate undergrad in biology science related field and you do not want to pursue medical school you have 2 options.</p>

<p>1) Apply to Graduate school
2) Work for a biotech/pharma company for an hourly wage job for 3 - 7 years and EARN a promotion</p>

<p>If you apply to graduate school for a PhD, and you are accepted into a good program, you get PAID to go to school. Generally you take home 23k to 30k per year. If you include not having to pay for classes then you could say 40k - 50k per year. </p>

<p>After your PhD, you generally do a post-doc for 2-6 years and earn ~40k - 60k.</p>

<p>After that, you can apply for higher level positions within biotech/pharma making ~80k -100k, or try to find a position as a professor.</p>

<p>Funding for master degrees varies. Some might not get any assistance in paying for school and others might get scholarships and research fellowships as well (take home of usually 12k - 18k). After your masters, you can apply for a PhD program, or begin joining the work force within biotech/pharma.</p>

<p>If you graduate with an undergrad degree and begin working within biotech and pharma, you are probably going to be earning ~30k per year with an hourly wage. You can work your way up to senior level positions, but you need to work hard and prove you are smart. Just like in most businesses. Also location matters, IMO you need to live in a state where there are a lot of biotech companies in order to find a job. The entry level positions are hourly paid, so companies are not going to be flying people in for interviews.</p>

<p>Also, if you join the work force right from undergrad, then decide to pursue a higher degree, most graduate schools appreciate that you have real world experience in a related field and look at it as a bonus.</p>