<p>--or are they equal in importance? For a moment I am suspending other factors such as demographics, ECs.</p>
<p>The question might be also phrased as ...</p>
<p>What is the first filter that admissions uses, test scores or GPA/class rank, or </p>
<p>which of these filters would be used first?</p>
<p>GPA by far.</p>
<p>Grades, and the courses that you earned them in.</p>
<p>Your HS transcript is the best evidence that the colleges have that you can perform at the level they expect of their students.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What difference does it make? Both filters are used, it doesn’t make any difference which order they are applied in?</p>
<p>Funny, I got this question this morning from a HS junior.3
My answer: GPA 66% (as a shorthand for COURSEWORK), SAT et. al 33%. </p>
<p>When you stop to think about it, it does seem kind of absurd that a quick-timed TRICK test of basic english and math is so important in the offices of adcoms. What of those who process 20% slower than others, but are more thorough or insightful? It can take a score of 700 and make it a score of 600. What of those who can do actual calculus very well, but make silly mistakes in the basic algebra used for the SAT?</p>
<p>Pea, I disagree.</p>
<p>All non-affluent students have limited resources to work with. Let’s say a family can budget $1,500 per year on out-of-school educational tutoring. Should that money be spend on a twice-monthly chemistry tutor, or a twice monthly SAT tutor (again assume there is not enough $$ to pay for both), or some combination of the two?</p>
<p>Many adcom offices will in fact assign some kind of a rank and score for each… let’s say something like this:</p>
<p>GPA, weighted: 4.3+ 15 pts.
4.1 - 4.3: 13 pts.
3.9 - 4.1: 11 pts., etc.</p>
<p>SAT:
1500+ 5 pts.
1400-1500: 4 pts.
1300 - 14–: 3 pts., etc.</p>
<p>So, if a family were to budget tutoring, the relative importance of the SAT vs. GPA is a very real factor in the allocation of limited resources.</p>
<p>In point of fact, the University of California, San Diego uses a point formula for GPA, 5 SAT tests, ECs, and different measures of overcoming life financial/familial/health, etc. obstacles. It is published for all to see. UCSD published it, but in reality all adcom offices use some sort of informal, unpublished adding of points that is not dissimilar to that used by UCSD.</p>
<p>Wrong wrong wrong. A 4.0 student with a 900 SAT is NOT going to get into a first or second tier school. PERIOD. The SAT is used primarily as a “weed in/out” tool and to some degree as a measure of success. The GPA is used to weed in/out as well, but more likely used to examine likelihood of success, particularly if there are APs on the transcript. </p>
<p>I have heard of kids with 3.0 gpa’s and a 1500 getting into prestigious schools, but NOT the other way around. </p>
<p>Schools routinely bs you about the holistic approach and not just looking at SAT scores. Don’t believe them. If you are clearly below their benchmark redline, you are out. Done. Finished. (exceptions are athletes and sometimes URMs.) </p>
<p>If you are on the bubble, then they will look at other factors like strength of curriculum, reputation of your high school, recommendations etc. </p>
<p>Its the sad truth. Do I like it? Of course not. </p>
<p>Further, every school has its own methodology of reviewing applications. Some are highly computerized and plug in the numbers and its thumbs up or down, some are very personalized and a full reading of your file is done, and others are a melange of both. What specific quotient they apply to SAT’s vs. GPA’s can also vary. </p>
<p>Don’t obsess about a particular school. If you got in, great. If you got rejected or waitlisted, sorry…but move on. The best revenge is success at the school where you DID get in, and then publishing in the newspaper that you are on Dean’s List and Honor Roll and graduate Phi Beta Kappa and rub it in the nose of those who turned you down (in your head of course…not literally or directly.) Admissions mistakes are made every year, both in whom they reject and in whom they accept. Its a very inexact science and because there are thousands of more applicants than they have seats (dorm space), they must cut through the mustard somewhere at some arbitrary number. I have even heard of kids who perform poorly on standardized testing doing well in college and kids with high SATs utterly bombing out. It happens. </p>
<p>Most schools will tell you they are both considered but are very reluctant to assign a weight to either one, because they may not be applying the same weight to all students objectively. A high gpa from a weak school is worth less than a good but not stellar gpa from a very rigorous school (prep or public) whose reputation is unquestioned and whose graduates routinely do very well in college. And colleges know that SAT scores are not always reliable predictors of success in college. Sadly, SAT scores seem to be the MAJOR factor when considering academic scholarships. And that is a gross injustice if you ask me. But it is what it is.</p>
<p>Of course, SOME of those with high GPA’s and high SAT’s will sneer and snarl and call the rest of us human beings unworthy and jealous wannabe’s. If I could, I would coral all of those people and send them off to some nerdy school for snarling narcissistic brats so they can live amongst themselves and scratch each other’s eyes out. And leave the rest of the normal crowd to go to outstanding schools and be warm and welcoming fellow classmates who challenge each other in class and support each other through the ups and downs of college life, as they transform themselves into full blown adults hopefullly to make a difference in life for others.</p>
<p>Don’t judge yourself by your gpa or SAT score. Rather, strive to improve and do better always, but give yourself enough slack and leeway to accept one’s weaknesses and faults, using self deprecating humor as your best shield from others who may be judgmental. If you have an exceptional SAT score and GPA, its considered poor form to brag about it or “go phishing for compliments with faux humility” or that “help, I have a 1600 SAT and can’t decide between Harvard, Yale and Stanford!” bs. </p>
<p>In a perfect world every student (and parent) would pick the college which is the perfect fit for themselves and always get in, then succeed once there. But that is not reality. Too many kids think they are Ivy material or that the Ivy League owes them an admission ticket because they have a 4.0 and a 1580 SAT. Too many are chasing prestige and USNWR rankings instead of finding that special school where they would thrive and be happiest.</p>
<p>ghost, ha!</p>
<p>funny you would post this. On the UCSD board there is a student that got admitted with EXACTLY those GPA and SAT scores. As you know, UCSD is a top tier school.</p>
<p>“Wrong wrong wrong. A 4.0 student with a 900 SAT is NOT going to get into a first or second tier school. PERIOD”</p>
<p>well JohnAdams12, I was unaware of that thread, but thank you for mentioning it. </p>
<p>This does not mean every school will use the same weighting of GPA v. test scores as UCSD does, but clearly all nine UCs are not far off, nor is University of Michigan which until about five years ago used a formula that was about 85% GPA and 15% test scores.</p>
<p>Dunnin, I have been continually amazed at the strong emphasis on GPA that the UC systems puts…</p>
<p>here you go:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-general/684094-lowest-accepted-uc-scores-5.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-general/684094-lowest-accepted-uc-scores-5.html</a></p>
<p>*"I got into UCSD, USCB, UCD, and UCSC and was denied by UCLA, UCB, and UCI. The ACT score was okay, but the SAT II’s were abysmal.</p>
<p>4.0 GPA
29 ACT
470 and 490 SAT II
Somewhat good EC’s and amazing essays"*</p>
<p>SAT/ACT is a nationalized exam meant to standardize the whole process. Grade inflation is prevalent in highschools as well. If you’re not good at the “hyper-tricky” SAT but are still a <em>good</em>, and intelligent, student you should do well on the ACT. It doesn’t matter which one you perform best on - the fact is that these are EQUAL measures of academic success. They are pivotal in the admission process because of the point of reference to compare students.
My own personal anecdote (short and to the point) :rolleyes:
75%-ile on the SAT…my senior year. Bleh, am I a village idiot?? D:
96th%-ile on the ACT my senior year (decided to take at the last moment - no preparation). Much better.
Godspeed and do your best. Got into a “tier one” top-20 public with a 3.85 GPA (out of 4.0), 5 APs, and a decent ACT score.</p>
<p>WELL SAID !!! You are right on here…</p>
<p>whomoved, what was your decent act score?</p>
<p>also, on the ucsd case , the 29 act score that was listed converts to a 1300 SAT score, and not a 900. touche , ghost. :)</p>
<p>[ACT-SAT</a> Concordance](<a href=“http://www.act.org/aap/concordance/index.html]ACT-SAT”>http://www.act.org/aap/concordance/index.html)</p>
<p>one thing that ghost said, or may have said in another post, that CCers are ‘prestige hounds’. Well, this CC er,and many others, too, is an ‘info hound’. </p>
<p>Along these lines, INFO give me INFo: in this nice thread, there was a reference to the numerical weights that admissions give to scores and to gpa - and even other components of the app. Boy would this info hound like to know those weights and the formulas. Are they published anywhere? Can we simply ask admission ‘offline’?</p>
<p>I notice that some of the college search engines do give a numeric probability, so I asssume these engines are privy to the weights. eg, c**<em>eD</em>ata</p>
<p>I think some CCers are too naive when it comes to GPA and SAT</p>
<p>I mean, don’t simply say what you THINK it should be.</p>
<p>in reality, colleges need some measure that would put a student in a national context and compare him to other students from very different backgrounds</p>
<p>Some schools have teachers who are very generous in giving grades. In some schools its the opposite. Colleges know each case is different. SAT and ACT are standardized and are the same for all students wherever they go to school. </p>
<p>For example, i’ve attended two highschools, and even after putting the same amount of effort (which is virtually none), the resulting GPAs were very different. my average from my last school was barely above 80 percent. In my new school, I have high 90s, even with harder courses (full IB)</p>
<p>Think of international students. an 80% average from a local highschool in South Korea would not necessarily equate to an 80% average from a local highschool in Tanzania, for example. If the two students have their SAT scores, we can compare them in an easier and unbiased way. </p>
<p>GPA is a big factor in college admissions, but I think SAT is just as important, if not more. I wouldn’t be surprised if many colleges used SAT scores as their primary filter when reading applications. </p>
<p>You can take the SAT multiple times. You might make a case that you just suck at taking standardized tests and that it DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING (some CCers say this all the time, which really annoys me.) but the test tests your ability to reason correctly under the pressure of a given time. You have both the SAT and the ACT, and you can take both tests multiple times. Just saying that standardized tests are not your thing is not an excuse for a low score.</p>
<p>In my opinion, a relatively high GPA (maybe 3.5~) can be achieved through pure hard work. (AP and IB might be exceptions) one might have to spend more time studying, but pure effort would raise one’s GPA to a certain extent. (Even if a person isn’t as “bright” as his peers, simply spending hours to memorize all the stuff he needs to know for a test would get him steller grades without a doubt, with the exception of languages.)</p>
<p>The SAT score would not increase beyond your level by simple memorization. Getting familiar with the test would get you a couple hundred points at first but that’s it. It’s not a perfect test, but it reasonably correlates with the student’s current level of english and reasoning, IMO.</p>
<p>“I mean, don’t simply say what you THINK it should be.”</p>
<p>I want to know more facts and real info instead of this bs talking and guessing in the admissions game, adcoms, and not adCONS :)</p>
<p>( I THINK ) I wish there were more transparency in the admission process. How do you know if it is worth your while to apply, and how do you know how much it will cost, including loans, in the end?</p>
<p>I say I THINK because one item I picked up in reading CC is that the collges outside of the USA are pretty straightforward. boom boom boom, 1, 2,3 standardized test score, you’re in, or you’re not in. At least in teh USA one has a chance to show off other parts of your self. Plus, in the usa, colleges might have a more colorful diverse mosaic in the student body, the people you’ll live with the next 4 yrs, which is nice :)</p>
<p>[I wonder if there is that level of diversity at those european or other extra-usa colleges? related question: what do the european colleges do with the apps that have higher then their minimum test scores? Just simply exclude them ?] this is probably a different thread.</p>
<p>GPA can be altered in so many ways based on who you are(personality, school type, teacher, how teachers think of you) Note: GPA does not mean Courseload. </p>
<p>SAT can not be changed. You can go to a terrible high school, be rank 1 and have a 4.0 GPA, but that can be equal to a hard-worker who has a 3.7 and is ranked 20th because his school is extremely competitive. That’s why GPA or rank is really not useful. </p>
<p>SAT, on the other hand, is much better, albeit not perfect in any way, at comparing students all over the country. It is true that luck and income can influence one’s score, but it is not as much of a difference as what GPAs tend to have.</p>
<p>couple points on gpa:</p>
<p>1) in this thread two times was it mentioned that it reflected a certain hard work ethic. Is nt this something that admissions would be interested in, too? Don’t they know that college is probably more than three solid hours of concentration?</p>
<p>2) GPA is cumulative, reflecting in one measure the total work of 3 plus yrs of HS; presumably, it would even out the inflationary and deflationary oddities of different teachers, too, since it is over 3+ yrs.</p>
<p>SO far, can I say that most admissions people, at least at the places with tons of apps, will use standardized test scores to weed out applicants, as an exclusion filter? That is , is it accurate to say, regardless of GPA, that one should NOT apply to a college if your score is less than…</p>
<p>a) … the 25 pct ile of the mid 50?</p>
<p>b) … the 50 pct ile of the mid 50?</p>
<p>c) … the 75 pct ile of the mid 50?</p>
<p>let’s add a clause…</p>
<p>regardless of GPA, that one should NOT apply to a college if your test score is less than…</p>
<p>a) … the 25 pct ile of the mid 50?</p>
<p>b) … the 50 pct ile of the mid 50?</p>
<p>c) … the 75 pct ile of the mid 50? </p>
<p>AND </p>
<p>the college acceptance rate is…</p>
<p>1) …under 30 pct?</p>
<p>2)… under 40 pct?</p>
<p>3)… under 50 pct?</p>
<p>AND</p>
<p>the total apps coming into admissions is…</p>
<p>1) …greater than X thousand?</p>
<p>(the latter clause is to control for crazy artifacts from too low of an applicant pool)</p>
<p>you can see that I am trying to discover any rules or order in the admissions process, especially in more selective colleges. </p>
<p>question: it was alluded to earlier in this thread, but to what extent do admissions people ‘score’ or quantify an app, assigning numbers or weight to each component of an app?</p>
<p>eg, is there a score for the HS (someone told me there is such a score)? what is it? is it standard across different colleges, or does each college ‘score’ or assess each HS differently?</p>
<p>Doncha think it would be easier to just make a $200MM donation to the college? say, the ‘DS’ building :)</p>
<p>I dug this up b/c I was on the UC Santa Barbara website today, and found this page on their admissions selection criteria.</p>
<p>[UCSB</a> Admissions](<a href=“http://www.admissions.ucsb.edu/SelectionProcess.asp?section=selectionprocess&subsection=reviewprocess&selectiontype=prospective_freshman]UCSB”>http://www.admissions.ucsb.edu/SelectionProcess.asp?section=selectionprocess&subsection=reviewprocess&selectiontype=prospective_freshman)</p>
<p>The line that stuck out for me was this:</p>
<p>“The grade point average is most heavily weighted in the academic index, accounting for about 60% of the total.”</p>
<p>Bottom line: the UCs don’t have much patience for high standardized test scorers who underperform in the classroom.</p>