What is so attractive about Harvard?

Parents Forum
61

Whether earned or warranted, the name does carry a ton of weight. I graduated from Harvard 35 years ago. I’m an attorney and, to this day, when I meet new clients for the first time, the first thing they often mention (from having read my firm bio) is the fact that I am a Harvard alum. I know for a fact that the law firm I ended up working for right out of law school chose to initially interview me over dozens of other candidates because of the undergraduate Harvard degree on my resume.

That said, when my daughter was waiting to hear from Harvard this April, I was formulating arguments as to why she shouldn’t go there. They don’t offer her preferred major, and, considering the size of the school and their endowment, they still have far too many absurdly huge lecture courses, where most of your direct contact is with graduate student TAs and not professors. Harvard made the point moot (proving that not all legacies get in to Harvard), but I still think that she would have been better off at the school she ended up choosing (a much larger state flagship university, at half the cost of Harvard).

62

“I graduated from Harvard 35 years ago. I’m an attorney and, to this day, when I meet new clients for the first time, the first thing they often mention (from having read my firm bio) is the fact that I am a Harvard alum.”

D1 says she really likes to be among her old blockmates or on the Harvard campus, because there everyone got into Harvard which leaves them free to talk about other things.

She doesn’t play the “hide the ball” game of saying she “went to school in Boston,” because she says it looks even worse when the person asking the questions finally finds out that you did go to H. So she will say she went to Harvard if directly asked, but she doesn’t bring it up herself and doesn’t wear Harvard gear out in public. She might wear an old Harvard t-shirt or something while doing chores around the house, but if she wears college gear out in public it will be something with her House name or logo on it. That way other Harvard people will get it, but everyone else will not.

63

This is spot on. I’ve posted before that during my app cycle to HBS in the 80’s, we were told that getting admitted to HBS was like applying to a bank for a loan; the more you demonstrate you don’t need it, the better the chance of getting it. I had already taken a small startup public when I entered the program. I left in the first year as I wasn’t getting much out of it, I had more interesting things to tend to, and the breakeven was just too long. The delta between what I and most of my classmates were making going in to the program and what we were likely to make coming out was not as great as people on the outside liked to believe. I’m now retired and don’t think staying or leaving would have/had much of an impact on my subsequent career.

On the prestige front, for several years after leaving the program, I did have to explain that gap in my work history. No employer ever held leaving HBS against me, and I know I was attractive to more than one company just because I attended. In one firm’s opinion, graduating wasn’t the important thing, getting admitted was the relevant signal. So, companies did give some weight to my brief connection with Harvard.

For me, though, I’m much more proud of my amazing undergraduate education. If you ask about it, I might tell you I “went to school in Ann Arbor” and leave it at that. :wink:

But, to answer the OP’s question, as others have said, it’s just “prestige hype.”

64

“It’s prestige hype.”

I see many here dismiss Harvard and other top colleges are all hype but there is a reason some colleges get the reputation of “elite” and “prestigious” because they have EARNED that reputation, time and time again. It’s not all marketing hype folks. From the world-class programs/majors, top faculty and graduate students in their field, top to bottom excellent student body from all over the world, first in class resources and endowment, access to international leaders in business and politics who seek out Harvard to do presentation and interact with the student body, recruiters top choice college, very helpful and loyal alums, and history of producing highly sought after graduates, Harvard is not just hype but delivers on their hard earned reputation.

Let’s give credit where credit is due…

65

“…but there is a reason some colleges get the reputation of “elite” and “prestigious” because they have EARNED that reputation, time and time again.”

That’s a good point. Harvard didn’t get all that prestige by hiring a clever PR firm to promote its brand. It earned it by being the top or very near the top college in the US for the 17th century, the 18th century, the 19th century, the 20th century, and it’s off to a pretty good start for the 21st century.

A slick PR campaign might get a school some notice over the short run, but there is no way a college could maintain a very high reputation for nearly 400 years if there weren’t some serious quality behind the brand.

66

Agreed but ongoing good PR can keep attracting quality faculty, students and resources so it becomes a perpetual cycle.

67

Ongoing good PR SHOULD strive to attract quality faculty, students and resources. Quality administrators should continually look to improving academics (as in Harvard investments in engineering). But hey, this it true for all schools isn’t it?.

68

There are only 271,000 living Harvard alumni in the USA. Wife and FIL are among this cohort.

That’s less people in total than a few blocks in Brooklyn. Lol. Imagine if the world spent this much time touting any other tiny subset of our species like this, hard to imagine.

Can we please move on people. It’s this repetitive and granular analysis of one’s greatness that’s just, I don’t know. Boring? Irrelevant? Self congratulatory?

It’s a great school and a unparalleled network.

It’s the college brand among brands.

They’ve been at this for 300 years. They should be good after all and it’s certainly embedded into our culture.

Ok?

But that is different than perfect for everyone, infallible, guaranteed happiness or professional success.

So incredibly great but human. Just like everywhere else. That works best for me.

69

If we completely stopped rehashing things on CC, there would be nothing more to post. For every pro Harvard post a new prestige-o-meter gets its wings. It’s all good. :wink:

70

Harvard is one of the best colleges but their location, financial aid and brand recognition play a huge role in attracting families.

71

There wasn’t any other school that offered absolutely everything I cared about at the highest level. All schools have weaknesses, but its weaknesses were in areas less important to me. There was no compromise on anything that mattered to me.

All this academically AND musically AND the houses AND these amazing kids from all over the world AND this location AND no athletic scholarships AND the special magic of this history and lore? Dayenu, dayenu, dayenu. I’m going to my 20th reunion at the end of the month and still can’t believe this really happened.

72

Harvard – 83%
Stanford – 82%
MIT – 76% (81% among males)
Yale – 69%
Princeton – 66%

An article quite a few years back in NYT said if you were to rank colleges like they do in chess, i.e. looking at cross-admit data (one chess player beating another corresponding to a student picking one college over another), Harvard was 1, Yale 2, but the interesting conclusion was that it wasn’t even close. At that time 64% of HY admits chose H, making Harvard a clear-cut #1, and the 64/36 was like a landslide win in an election. And Yale had the best cross-admit vs Harvard. Things have changed now of course with Stanford being #2. So Parchment has H/Y at 64/36 (things haven’t really changed there it looks like) and has H/S as 56/44, which would probably make Stanford a distinct second. Yes, I know many on cc say Parchment is garbage in garbage out, so I’ll concede that.

73

As @Data10 points out in #24, the high and rising yields at the top few schools indicate that there are fewer and fewer cross-admits. This is in part the result of holistic admissions driven less and less by stats, including the emphasis on increasing the number of first-gens, which leads to idiosyncratic outcomes (i.e., someone’s triumph over adversity wows the committee at Harvard but not at Yale, where the committee is wowed by someone else who didn’t get to the top of the Harvard pile).

74

I agree with every word of this. But I also believe a lot of what ChoatieMom wrote right above it.

The fact is, the University of Michigan delivers on just about every one of those points, too. Of course, let’s acknowledge that Michigan isn’t some random stand-in for “generic public flagship” here; it’s one of a limited number of truly world-class elite universities in existence. But it’s undergraduate education program is structured somewhat differently from Harvard’s. It is worth thinking about what those differences are and what exactly they mean.

First, some of the similarities: World-class programs/majors, check. Top faculty and graduate students in their field, check. Diverse student body, check (but lots of them grew up in Michigan). Access to international leaders, check, but not quiiiiiiiite as frequently as at Harvard. Helpful alums, history of producing sought-after graduates, check. There is an educational experience very close to Harvard’s that Michigan students can access if they wish.

Differences: The student body has a wider range of abilities, and a lot bigger volume. Michigan may actually have almost as many creme-de-la-creme types as Harvard, but they are mixed in with a whole lot of perfectly fine milk as well. Michigan’s endowment is impressive, but less so than Harvard’s. It’s not first-in-class. Public funding (and its vicissitudes) remains a somewhat meaningful element of Michigan’s budget, especially for undergraduate education, although I think most people who don’t follow these things closely would be shocked to know how small a portion of Michigan’s operating budget the state contribution represents. Recruiters who actually need to hire people pay lots of attention to Michigan, because it has a lot of people to hire, but it may not be the “first choice” for high prestige employers (who nevertheless do recruit there).

The mere fact of a Michigan degree doesn’t mean as much as a Harvard degree. A Harvard degree means that the recipient was admitted to Harvard – something that’s very difficult to achieve, and that pretty much means that there’s something extraordinary about this person it won’t be hard to notice. A Michigan degree means the recipient was admitted to Michigan, and that by itself just isn’t as extraordinary.

How much do those differences matter? Not very much, I think, at least for students that have good internal motors and strong ambition (things that are necessary at Harvard, too, but perhaps more uniformly part of the culture). Other than the sense of exclusivity Harvard provides (and Cambridge, and those river houses, and not having to pair blue with gold-yellow “maize”), Michigan offers a Harvard-quality student pretty much everything Harvard does.

75

Or that there was something extraordinary about this person as a high school senior that attracted Harvard’s attention. (Note that what was extraordinary may have been an unearned relationship, e.g. to a big donor, rather than an earned achievement.)

76

Bragging rights. Both for the student and the parents.

I mean it, and I’m not knocking Harvard. It’s an outstanding school, and it’s hard to find any serious faults with it. But so are Yale, Princeton, and Stanford, with a slew of others not far behind. But Harvard is more famous, the one school everyone in the country has heard of and thinks is the pinnacle of excellence. Gallup did a survey on this some years back, not of CC types but of the population generally, asking people the open-ended question, “What i your opinion is the best college in the United States?”. Harvard came out #1 overall and in every region, and apart from the West where Stanford came in a close second, it wasn’t even close. No other school even made the top five in all regions. You can argue that Harvard is marginally better than the other tippy-top schools in certain respects and I wouldn’t dispute it, but the reputational gap is much wider than any actual difference in the quality of education or the quality of the experience. And so you have hypercompetitive parents grooming their precocious children from an early age to set their sights on Harvard as the pinnacle of achievement. The kids buy it hook, line, and sinker, and are reinforced along the way by their peers who are doing the same thing. Yale and Princeton just don’t get talked about with the same reverence, except perhaps by alums of those august institutions. An acceptance to Yale or Princeton is a very valuable prize, but an acceptance to Harvard is seen as the grand prize, and it’s not easily turned down. And you can be sure when that acceptance comes, it gets mentioned to all the student’s friends and classmates, and all the parents’ friends, relatives, and often even casual acquaintances like the hairdresser and the butcher. Not does the bragging stop there. It’s a running joke in academic circles that anytime you meet a Harvard grad, you should make a note of how long it took from the beginning of the conversation to the point where said Harvard grad “drops the H-bomb,” finding a way to work their Harvard ties into the conversation. In my experience, it’s usually pretty quick, though of course there are exceptions to every rule.

When we lived in Manhattan some years ago, we knew several moms who went to great lengths angling to get their kids into the “right” pre-school that was a feeder for the “right” kindergarten that was a feeder for top private schools that were known to be feeders for Harvard. Not Yale, not Princeton, not any other school—Harvard was unambiguously the goal and the top prize. That’s an extreme version of what I’m talking about, but I know for a fact that something similar happens in all parts of the country, albeit sometimes in less extreme form.

77

Valid point that the determination is made when the person in question is 17. The relevance of that certainly fades with time, although it probably remains relevant through the period when people have their critical first “career” jobs or key graduate study. As to the “unearned relationship” – if it was important enough to get the kid into Harvard, for which other universities’ megagifts are rounding errors, then it will be well worth attention down the line.

78

I think this is such a funny observation ^^^

Overall, I believe the truth is that there is some percentage of jerks at all schools. The top academic schools do not have a lock on the obnoxious people—there are plenty of obnoxious kids on all campuses, and graduates from all of them, too. I would also say that there are a percentage of jerks from every social-economic group as well. But people seem to love to focus on the ones from the top schools or the wealthy. According to Taylor Swift, “Haters gotta hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.” ;-).

You will find name-droppers all over the place, but if a name-dropper doesn’t go to a particularly prestigious college, they may instead name-drop that they are from Greenwich, or drive an X car, or used to date a certain movie star, or their kid hit more home runs than anyone else, or have one of those weird bumper stickers proclaiming their kid is an honor roll student, or whatever.

But I actually have found that Harvard kids and grads are mostly not interested in name-dropping Harvard. The term “H bomb” originated in a pretty opposite way than posted above. It’s more about how unpleasant people feel when forced to reveal that they attended Harvard—people have just the worst reactions. Even among those that don’t harbor resentment of any sort and think Harvard is lovely, they may say awkward things like “wow! You must be a genius”, which no one enjoys responding to, it’s pretty awkward and the person is forced into some odd self-deprecating response and ends up putting down the school they love just to be “relatable”. But frequently the response is far, far worse. People are pretty unkind—either actually say bad stuff, or THINK bad stuff and talk about it later, possibly on college confidential :wink: So the term has more to do with the frequently awful reactions of the people hearing the “H bomb”. Clearly saying that you “went to school in Boston” doesn’t go over well, and that’s not the best solution, but I do not believe it is intended as a coy way of trying to brag—I think it comes from a place of hoping to avoid dropping the H bomb.

I think it stands out when someone confesses that they went to Harvard. People’s antennae are raised. You may not notice how quickly someone mentions that they attended some other great school such as Providence College, University of Wisconsin, UTAustin, Lehigh, UCLA. Your antennae isn’t raised and it goes right past you. You might think the person is great. But people are quick to notice when someone mentions Harvard—and negatively! The other stuff goes over your head. Try paying attention—I bet you’ll find that Harvard people are NOT quicker to mention their alma mater.

I had a friend make a nasty post on FB last year, commenting on how she can’t stand the bragging from parents of kids who got into Ivies. Yet this very same woman had already posted THREE times about her son going to U Wisconsin. And being also FB friends with the parents of the ivy-bound students, not a single one of them posted anything, and I know they are NOT quick to brag at all. And I thought, “Wow, are you oddly self-absorbed and unaware!!” And does she not even realize that U Wisconsin is fabulous and there are a lot of parents who have children going to less-prestigious schools who might consider that bragging? And that there are parents of kids who are going to community college who might consider kids going to any 4 year college bragging? And that there are parents of kids who are not going to college, perhaps are even struggling with mental issues or drugs or eating disorders or whatever, who would love to have a kid going to community college? Etc. But I am certain this woman would never judge herself for bragging about U Wisconsin. Just judges the people whose kids are going somewhere more prestigious than her kid. Because THOSE people are jerks.

Anyway, I would bet that there are far more Harvard attendees who never mention where they went to school, and you obviously have no way of knowing how humble they are. It is only the name-droppers who stand out. But name-droppers and braggers exist everywhere, sometimes we just don’t notice as much. No one cuts the Harvard kids any slack, despite it being a very awkward topic for them.

My son never wears Harvard clothes outside of being on campus, or feels comfortable saying wonderful things about his school, for fear of nasty judgment. Think about it—don’t some of you judge a person negatively for wearing a Harvard T-shirt? You might think, “what a schmuck! Look at that braggart!” While the poor kid is standing next to someone proudly wearing her University of Richmond sweatshirt, and no thinks there’s anything wrong with her. I would actually say the “Prestige” factor is a net negative of Harvard, NOT a positive, but there are plenty of positive things about the actual school to make up for it! ;-).

79

Money, Money, Money, Money, Money. Then the fact that it has been around a long time. Great PR for generations. A school which has catered to the ruling elite for generations. It has developed a reputation that attending it is a golden ticket to the ranks of the Rich And The Powerful. Absolutely the best at PR, recruiting the future rich people, picking faculty after they become famous, etc.

Oh, and Money, Money, Money. An endowment the size of the economy of a small country. They invented the idea of alumni networks, modeled after organizations like the Freemasons. Harvard Alumni are supposed to take care of each other. You hire each other, propose each other as members of boards and other important positions. You vote for each other.

Even much of their intellectual achievements have to do with networking. Professorships, research funding, fellowships, etc, all were easier if you were a “Harvard Man”. Whose novels and research will be proposed for awards, who will receive precedence for an invention, who will be put forward to lead a research institute? Connections, connections, connections.

It’s a great school for a certain type of kid. The reason that it attracts more of the HYP students is that it is the best school for the type of kid who applies, and is accepted, to HYP. They are simply to most Ivy of all the Ivies, so any students who wants to go to an Ivy, because it’s an Ivy, will almost always prefer Harvard over the others.

Of course their alumni report being satisfied. First, that is true of almost every college. Second, are you going to trash a place where they repeatedly told you that you are The Best Of the Best Of The Best? Admitting that you didn’t like it is admitting that it isn’t The Best, which means that you may also not be on of The Best Of the Best Of The Best.

80

Son would not even look at the Harvard campus when he and H were in town to see MIT years ago. H and I saw it on a vacation after kid in college far from there. Did not like the campus.