If all we’re talking about is TO leading to more “shoot for the moon” applications, then I am not in a position to quarrel with your comment. Sounds reasonable.
My point was relative to the comment by another poster that HS is just easier now (maybe he/she didn’t mean the comment to be that sweeping). I don’t think it is. There have always been people who’ve achieved a high GPA by taking easy classes. There was a big controversy at my HS over a girl in the top 10 who took ridiculously easy classes (lots of TA, PE, typing, etc) and had no plans to go to college. I think those people have always been around. But now it seems easier to distinguish them because there’s so much opportunity for crazy rigor at the HS level now. And I think admissions departments are pretty good at sorting out who took a rigorous course load and who did not. They also have the school’s counselors help on this point as well. Your comment about which cohort did better in admissions (the real rigor vs. the pretenders) seems to align with that view.
But, yeah, I think it’s reasonable to assume that dropping the tests lured some kids who have not carried a heavy load, and therefore have high GPAs, to apply to tippy top schools. If they aren’t finding success with that strategy, I have no problem with that outcome.
Is there a reason I should care about that though?
Not necessarily; we have experienced teachers who just teach to the AP and other teachers who try to teach the whole subject. As a result, kids get deserved As in AP classes and get 3s on the test. With that said, AP results and ACT- SAT are the only real objective measurement considered. This is a big reason why test-optional is so impactful in this discussion.
Actually, I think you are putting words into my mouth that I wouldn’t say. Agree with you that with real rigor (backed by IB/APs or even none of the above) a student will do well. It’s the high GPA in a school where there are 30 Valedictorians and so very many are getting A’s that is problematic. IMO, you can easily see on a graph how many are getting perfect/near perfect GPAs. At some schools, the number is really high. I just googled, % of students with A grades 2022, this came up. I don’t know the source but if even 30% of kids have an A average, we have an issue.
Many, in fact, do think the SATs are meaningless. Usually not the students or parents of those students who score well.
So, I actually believe SATs are a good single use metric for assessing all students against a national basis. Nothing more or less. GPA’s can matter especially if the student is in a cohort of kids where they are outstanding versus the group. Or, they can be very inflated making it tough to discern if the kid can actually do the work. AP’s and Subject tests used to help fill in gaps but they have gone away for the most part or Covid has affected scores to a large degree. Still could be useful.
Another factor, that few talk about is ranking. At a large school, a high ranking actually has more data points. At a small school with 25 graduates, it matters less. Add in that many schools, don’t/won’t rank and you can see how the entire process is a mess. And that is a good reason why so many kids apply to so many schools.
I have a love-hate relationship with AP’s and my kids. At first, I thought-great a dense curriculum and a test to verify. Then Covid hit, and it became difficult to learn online.
My kids have had excellent teachers who were restrained by the AP’s narrow band. You have to move quickly to get through all the material. Kids can get all 5’s and not be happy. Mine said that APs actually keep the good discussions from happening. And things that teachers might have a passion for, or would be willing to skip cannot be overlooked.
Kids must take the available APs or they don’t get the highest rigor box checked. So it continues unless the school drops all APs.
While SAT and ACT are common standards, they may not be as useful as more achievement-oriented standardized tests (AP and SAT subject tests in the US). Indeed, about a decade ago, Harvard’s admissions director said that the strength of prediction of college performance was strongest for AP (and IB) tests (i.e. achievement tests on advanced level material), then SAT subject tests (i.e. achievement tests on regular high school material), then HS GPA, then SAT and ACT. Unfortunately, SAT subject tests become so little used that they were discontinued, and use of AP tests for admission does not work so well when many college bound students do not take any (or any “core” ones) before 12th grade.
It does look like standardized testing in many other countries is much more focused on achievement in high school courses and curricula, compared to the US SAT and ACT.
Again, let’s move past the OT discussions of SAT efficacy, test optional policies, your kids’ schedules, etc, which have already been debated on other threads, often by the same users. If I have to ask again, I will just lick without comment.
I respectfully disagree with part of your comments. We have concluded in this thread that test-optional is central to the cause of increased applications. Also, the impact of not having the SAT as a metric and discussing the SAT’s usefulness is related to this topic. The class schedule, I agree, is off-topic.
Also, the discussion of AP scores as a metric to replace the SAT is relevant, as AP scores replace SAT as a tangible measure.
My kid wasn’t interested in Oxford, but when looking at it, I learned that they only accept 5’s in AP tests.
I think the merits and shortcomings of SATs has been beaten to death so I’m not going to add to it.
In terms of the impact of kids applying to so many schools, IMO, it’s the shifting factors that are being added and removed. Kids planned for ABC and now only have BC.
Uncertainty, causes many kids ( and parents ) to create a plan B. Just like having a balanced portfolio of stocks, having a balanced portfolio of schools is a good thing. This increases apps overall.
Going ba k to title of thread. Let me hit another direction…bcuz so many kids are applying to more, it has to have boosted stress, anxiety and everything else mental health wise.
The system has created the need for additional research, work, and an arms race that many kids and parents aren’t able to cope with.
I agree that mental health issues are really a big factor these days. Personally, I think Covid hit kids hard, even those without any mental health issues.
IMO, what adds to stress:
Time management
Uncertainty so many application factors have changed.
Holistic review ( means you don’t know if you’ll get it or not). It can be a lottery.
Societal expectations: On CC, many believe the path to a perfect life is via a great college. Said only mildly in jest. If a kid is carrying that around, they might think acceptance is a key rather than a path.
Costs: A kid gets accepted to every school on his/her list but after receiving all the FA info can only afford half of them or decides to take on huge debt to afford one.
Emotionally maturity: Remember being 17 and trying to make simple decisions? Compound that by a huge factor and huge costs. It’s terrifying.
I think this conversation is only relevant to a small portion of high school students and their families; the type of students who are hanging out here on CC. Only when students are mostly applying to schools with acceptance rates below 20% does this really become an issue. The vast majority of universities accept much larger percentages of students; many accept the majority of applicants. If students create a balanced list of schools where they are happy to attend any one of them, then the whole exercise in trying to maximize your chances at highly rejective schools is moot.
Exactly. Applying to 10+ schools is a choice, not a necessity. There are plenty of good schools where high stats kids have a great chance of admission, but for some of these kids (and their parents) “good” isn’t good enough.
Some programs are matches to a students interests and are very difficult to get into. Many others aren’t. Not all are chasing prestige. Also what people think of as a good school varies. For some it’s only T10, others State U, other are happy anywhere. Some are actually trying to get really good FA.
So far, my kids’ results have been random. I’ve heard the same across the board. Kids get accepted all the time at reach schools and waitlisted/rejected at ones they thought they would easily be accepted at. The outcome of never applying is always the same.
The more narrow you define success, the more stress you will have finding it. For those who need good FA, I have much more sympathy because that can be incredibly tough. But for those who narrowly define the list of “good” schools I have no sympathy. If you want that, fine. But don’t complain about the uncertainty, stress, etc that such a path creates.
Perhaps we should all have empathy regardless of their approach. Many kids don’t have help with their college path. Others are misled. Either way there are kids on the other side of the rejections. I’m not cold-hearted enough to feel like they deserve it. They’re 17/18 year old for Pete’s sake.
It’s tough for kids and parents. I wouldn’t judge someone else’s choices. I had few options but my kids have many. So my kids might have a different approach than someone else’s. Some kids feel like the way to financial stability is a “good” school. And, in fact, college is a stepping stone, for most, to higher paying work. That line of thinking doesn’t bother me at all. Seems to bother some and I get the rub re: prestige seeking at all costs. Nor does a kid seeking out whatever path they want to pursue. It might not work out but it’s a choice, like any other.
Not sure how the concept of “deserving it” fits within the reality of applying to schools with 5% acceptance rates. 95% of the people who apply are rejected. Do any of them “deserve” it? Only some of them? You apply somewhere knowing 19 out of 20 people get rejection letters yet you are surprised that you did?
I have empathy for kids who have lousy or no parents. But there is a sliding scale of empathy and limits to it. If at the end of the day, the worst thing that happened to you as a 17/18 year old with lousy or no parents was having a Top 10 or bust approach to college, you did very well compared to vast majority of other kids with lousy or no parents.
And having been on this site for a number of years, I know that a big source of kids with the Top X or bust mentality is parents who have a Top X or bust mentality. No sympathy there.
And we should educate people about the absurdity of the Top X or bust mentality. But given the vast majority of people have figured that out (or never even entertain the thought in the first place) it doesn’t seem like its a problem worth dedicating much time to address.
