<p>wow . . . how about most of the top 50,000 students in the country?</p>
<p>that works if by “Ivy caliber” you mean capable of doing successful academic work at a top-flight college</p>
<p>Of course, you might have meant “what is the model profile of a kid that can get accepted these days to an Ivy?”</p>
<p>Kei</p>
<p>Hunt, I love your second definition!</p>
<p>For unhooked students- DA’s, URM’s, athletic recruits, legacies, which face it, DO take up a large % if the spots open at Ivy’s and their ilk, I think Hunt’s definitions do define the type of students that will be given serious consideration-applications that make an ad com say “WOW, that’s impressive!” Students that have gone above and beyond the classes and EC’s offered at their HS, AND have shown passion, commitment AND an advanced level of expertise relative to their peers in a particular field or area, are they type of students that top colleges want.</p>
<p>menloparkmom and Hunt – I totally agree with both of your assessments and I’m glad someone finally mentioned the hooked students. It is a large percentage at each of the top schools and they are in a league of their own.</p>
<p>Consider that for the top schools, the vast majority of applicants have academic stats that make them reasonably qualified for admission, but the schools can only take 7 - 25 or so percent. So it then comes down to selecting those applicants who for whatever reason appear to have the capacity to bring a unique added value to the quality and richness of campus life. That would be, I assume, the way that those schools’ admissions committees make their difficult decisions and it is, I’m quite certain, the greatest asset that students experience in attending one of them.</p>
<p>I just want to point out that not every admit to prestigious colleges (not including URMs, legacy etc) is some sort of holy ridiculous unrealistically accomplished maniac.</p>
<p>Especially regarding top high schools (most notably the boarding schools and NYC day schools but there are tons more), usually being in the top ~25% of your class (not that any of these schools rank) and having a ~2250+ SAT, along with maybe dedicated participation on a varsity sport or student government or something is enough. While this is mostly anecdotal evidence, the types of kids who get into top-tier colleges from my school are not nearly as stand-out in-your-face impressive as the average admit is perceived to be.</p>
<p>Coming from lesser known schools does make it more difficult to stand out, which makes sense considering top colleges are really padding their classes with kids from prestigious high schools (my school sent 19 to Penn last year, I don’t even want to know how many got in). However, top students at average schools can still stand out by being better than their peers, ie being ranked in the top 5, top 2% whatever, which is feat that is much more difficult (albeit much less necessary) at private prep schools. It’s definitely harder though, and I guess this is where the 43984324 ECs necessary to get into an Ivy idea comes from, because there are so many average public schools in America that sometimes even being the best student in your school isn’t good enough. That’s when students need to step and make sure they look on paper #1) impressive and #2) interesting.</p>
<p>In looking at the local high school roughly 30 children (approx 10%) of the total graduating class each year attend one of the 8 Ivies. Each of them, for sure have high, but not always perfect standardised tests, they take a fair number (approx 8-10) AP level classes. What seems to set these ivy leaguers apart is that they do this plus are accomplished (often to a national level) in one area and are highly performing in several others. These are “well rounded” students. They are nice, down to Earth students who have fun, participate in extra curricular activities and the like, they just seem to be able to do more in the time they have.</p>
<p>For example: Student A was an internationally ranked fencer, but also was a national merit finalist, an AP Scholar, and an award winning artist. While travelling worldwide to compete they kept up an academic schedule that would be extremely tough for even a smart student to do, and also volunteered, was active in the school, and fenced every meet on the fencing team. </p>
<p>They are not the “grinders” who just get the high stats. They just naturally operate at a higher level.</p>
<p>Caveat: just my opinion based purely on observations of my own little part of the universe.</p>
<p>Well that last post just cracked me up…30 kids (10% of the class) go to ivies and they all are well rounded and someexcel at something at the national OK and the rest of the class is all “above average”…what kind of local high school has 30 kids with several that excel at a national level? The kids may be normal (but only in the context of their abnormal high school). </p>
<p>“ivy caliber” varies by the context the kid comes from…“ivy caliber” in NE DC is a kid who has dodged bullets, avoided drug culture, overcome the ineptitude of teachers and administrators in schools that would be poor quality even in a developing country and with only his willpower and perhaps one or two good teachers he has enough skills to appear like he can handle an ivy curriculum…ivy caliber here is shear guts and hard work. Ivy caliber for the kids from the school described by the poster above, is a pampered but nice focused kid with a tremendous support network of family and teachers who have given him a great educational foundation since he was four…with the tutors and the trainers to make him a nationally ranked fencer…</p>
<p>
I agree with Hunt’s definition (both serious and facetious). I think the point of thousands of kids being academic “Ivy caliber” has been emphasized enough. I am more interested in identifying the “model profile” of an unhooked applicant who is not likely to gain MULTIPLE Ivy/Ivy-level acceptances (i.e. the genius cross-admits) but has a good shot at one.</p>
<p>You don’t necessarily have to go above and beyond your HS’s academic offerings; but you do have to have the most rigorous curriculum possible at your HS, and often this is determined in comparison with other applicants each year rather than by the GC’s checkmarks. SAT/ACT scores and grades to match the rigor, of course. And then, do ECs and show them that you’re interesting–most people are interesting, but just from the small sample of application essays I’ve edited, a surprising number of them don’t “show” their interesting sides very clearly.</p>
<p>Do all that and you’re still not guaranteed positive results; but you’ve done what you can.</p>
<p>
Cynicism alert: If this “Ivy caliber” student happens to be white or Asian, they have a much tougher road to travel than if also an URM. Is overcoming obstacles truly a sufficient achievement for the unhooked in today’s competitive scene? (This excludes programs like QuestBridge specifically for low-income kids; the QB app, even if not matched, often acts as a special socioec diversity indicator and a tip factor similar to national achievements et al.)</p>
<p>
My son made the same comment. He felt a lot of his friends were on the wrong track all together, but they had shown him their essays so late he couldn’t really say, start all over.</p>
<p>Cynicism alert: If this “Ivy caliber” student happens to be white or Asian, they have a much tougher road to travel than if also an URM. Is overcoming obstacles truly a sufficient achievement for the unhooked in today’s competitive scene? (This excludes programs like QuestBridge specifically for low-income kids; the QB app, even if not matched, often acts as a special socioec diversity indicator and a tip factor similar to national achievements et al.) </p>
<p>I am sorry…I totally disagree that asian and white kids have a “tougher” road to hoe than a URM from a disadvantaged home. I see which URMs and white kids get into Ivies from our school (we are over 50% URM) and the ivies are not interested in generally capable kids from privileged backgrounds (even the URMs). Invariably, outstandingly focused and interesting kids get in (white, asian and urm) to top schools and many times the URMs and white kids that get in clearly had some barriers they had to overcome (immigrant from war torn country with years in a camp with no schooling, daughter of single mom helping raise 3 younger siblings but managed to play cello all four years, etc.,). I have no idea what scores/grades they had but they all took at least some ap and Ib classes so you knew they could do the work. Always, always white or URM they were kids that were admired for either some really special skill mixed with great smarts or they had toughness and smarts demonstrated by overcoming some pretty high walls to achievement. I think the mix must make for some great communities at these top schools.</p>
<p>^Different anecdotal experiences. My school is 20% Asian with a smattering of URM (not horribly low, but not notably high either) and every year I see privileged URMs–who are just good-grade students with typical top-tier achievements, but no national achievements et al–do surprisingly well in admissions. I also know various white, Asian, and URM students, not necessarily all from my HS, with different “levels” of admissions success. Maybe some just wrote bad essays… but cynical me doesn’t believe that low-socioec Ghana immigrants are uniformly better essay-writers than low-socioec Asian or Russian immigrants.</p>
<p>This does not apply to ORM immigrants with EC/personal “tips” equal to national-level achievements. I’m assuming a pool of students who succeed in AP classes with high grades and decent (2000-2200) SAT scores with “CC-norm” subjective factors.</p>
<p>However: let’s not turn this into an AA debate.</p>
<p>My kids’ high school doesn’t send many to Ivies. A couple of real braniacs to Princeton and Penn but the absolute shocker was the kid who got into Harvard. He has now graduated from Harvard but when he was accepted in 20 04- the most common reaction was whattttttt???
His parents were school teachers (Mom and elem teacher of my kids), he was about #3 in a class of about 150, not a NMF. He is a white male. He was a lead in the school musical for a couple of years but our musicals are popular with they guys for some reason (even football and bb players!), not particularly musically talented. Won the state high jump as a junior. Won it on a fluke, too. He was not expecting to get past the district meet.
He was apparently a good writer in high school. Might have gotten published but I have seen other kids get published. I guess my point is - you just never know!</p>
<p>I am not sure that Harvard is way above the rest - though the competition is stiffer than some.</p>
<p>D’s HS sends couple top kids (out of class of 30-50) to Ivys every year. So, to me couple kids graduating from her HS at the top of their class would constitute Ivy caliber. D. graduated #1, but she did not care to go to Ivy and do not consider them for Grad. School. However, her advisor at college suggested couple of them. She has no plans to do so (she is college junior at state school and planning to either stay in her current program when going to Grad. School or apply to schools close to home). We have discussed Ivys and she is not interested in them at all. She has never had a “B” in her life so far.</p>
<p>Miami, there is no such thing as “Ivys” when it comes to grad school. Every field and every discipline has its top programs-- and they don’t always correlate to the U’s reputation as a whole. I would hope that she is taking her advisor’s counsel on where to apply for grad school- the quality of a graduate program can be a meaningful differentiator on a person’s career over the long haul and I imagine the advisor knows whereof he or she speaks.</p>
<p>^There are grad. school at Ivy schools, that is what I meant, sorry! For example, there is Medical School at Harvard. I apologize to misleading.</p>
<p>OOPs, forgot to mention that it is not really that import where one goes to Medical School, any US Medical school is very good, no implication for future whatsoever. In fact, docs in the same office might be from Harvard and some state school and they will have all the same.</p>
<p>Excellent posts fineartsmajormom.</p>
<p>The two public high schools in my district might send one or two kids to the Ivys every year. I’m glad to see other posters pointing this out.</p>
<p>JustAMomOf4 – Remember, you guys knew the applicant. Harvard just saw him on paper. He probably didn’t tell Harvard that his state victory in the high jump was a fluke and he probably also didn’t mention that even though he was the lead in the school musical he isn’t that musically talented. It’s a great story.</p>
<p>It seems to me that non-URM applicants from our high school who gain admittance to the Ivies all have a regional/state/national-level leadership position or accomplishment. This characteristic signals the Ivy/elite school that the student goes above and beyond what’s average and will likely stand out in society someday, thereby promoting the reputation of their school. The only exception to this are the Penn admittees from our high school. We can’t figure out what criteria were used for them, since classmates are always surprised by the choices (and think Penn made a mistake, frankly.) Cornell also definitely accepts kids who are a little lower on the top student totem pole than the other Ivies, but still great kids.</p>
<p>Pea - yep, it is a great story. I think of him as just an all-around great student/leader/athlete (he was a varsity bb player as well) and talented writer who took a chance applying to Harvard and won.<br>
Goes back to another poster who said -anyone can apply!</p>
<p>One of my girls went to the prom with a kid who is now at Wharton. He didn’t go to her high school but to a local Catholic high school. His parents are Mexican and he is obviously bright- went to a couple of business oriented summer programs. Again, all around bright kid but nothing over the top. He spent April traveling to Stanford, Princeton, Yale and Cornell - all of whom accepted him (as well as Penn). His only rejection was Harvard. </p>
<p>I know another kid at Penn - he was valedictorian of his class. His mother devoted every waking moment to get him in there. She planned his high school schedule in 8th grade so he would graduate #1. Accomplished clarinetist - state orchestra. Very “nerdy” with ocd issues - she worked to get him a private room and would go to clean it for him. Father is a physician, mom a nurse and he is pre-med/bio major although he would love to just major in history. so sad. His brother is two years behind, more normal socially but bright as well and was accepted to Penn ED last fall.
Not sure what the fixation was since dad went to a no name LAC.</p>