@Lindagaf -yes I was referring to your thread and the reason I started this one is that I don’t really have a feel for the average excellent student and those who are above that.
I think my oldest was a more average excellent student. He had a 3.75 UW GPA, 6 AP classes, the rest of his classes were honors. He had a 33 ACT (2 sittings) and graduated in the top 10% of his HS class. He played 3 varsity sports and was captain of all three teams. He coached youth football and lacrosse but other than that he was just a regular smart kid. He was not interested in the Ivies. He applied to 2 reach school (Williams and Chicago) but didn’t really expect to get in those schools. He wound up at Case Western with good merit money and was happy there. He played football and got his degree and now he has a good job at a bank.
I see differences between my youngest and my oldest. My youngest has a 3.95 UW GPA, will graduate with 11 AP classes, the rest of his classes are honors. He has a 35 ACT (one sitting) and will most likely graduate in the top 5% of his class. He plays one varsity sport and has won all county honors and team awards. He has also won schoolwide academic awards. He does Model UN and has won awards. He is also an officer of the Literary Magazine.
Still, I’m not sure he has a better chance of getting into tippy top schools than his brother had.
^In my experience, a non-STEM boy can do better than you expect - especially if he can nail those essays. If he’s willing look at some of the LACs as well - they tend to be female heavy and it’s much easier for males to get in.
@mathmom I agree about males at LACs. @proudpatriot I will guess that S2 will get into some tippy tops. He is not “average” excellent IMO, more like excellent excellent. S1 is more avergae excellent, but mostly excellent:-)
@mathmom-Most of my son’s favorites are LAC. He is only interested in 3 universities, Yale, Vandy, and Brown and they aren’t his favorites. His favorites are Middlebury, W&L, Haverford.
@Lindagaf -I’m sure all of our kids are pretty fantastic kids! I’m only speaking in terms of what kind of students they are. My youngest is actuall S3. S2 is in college at Belmont University. He was not as good an academic student as either of his brothers but he is studying music and that is a whole different thing.
(in a sassy voice) guys, there is “so and so average excellence” (probs like 4 ap’s and under 80hrs community service" then there is like “average excellence” (probs like 6ap’s, 100-120hrs com service, and like a national forum on medicine attendant) then OMG like there is “excellent excellent” (def 8 ap’s no lunch on the schedule, 150 hours of com service, substitute teachers ap cal bc, working on their ib dipolma, and obvi student of the week for 52 weeks)
omg just let the kid be a kid in high school and get with the school counselor to ensure the college list is a good fit.
@LamarAcademy I think everybody agrees that HS students need to be who they are ( and many are internally driven with zero parental pressure- these kids come with their own set of issues). Finding a college that is a good fit is very important, and honestly thanks to CC I learned a lot about this process. Threads like this do serve a purpose. I do have that kid you described and she graduated #1 blah blah blah along with thousands of others. She is a perfectionist and never stops and if you think it’s easy to parent a kid like this, think again. It was - and continues to be - one of the hardest jobs I have ever had. When she applied to colleges she was wait listed to Vanderbilt and thanks to CC and threads like this I was not the least bit surprised. Neither was she. It’s fine - the goal here was for her to have balance, and she found it in her current school.
I am a very humble person. I never discuss my kids accomplishments in " real life." People learn about them on their own and then " yell" at me for not sharing. I write on this forum because it gives people a chance to see how this process unfolds when there are thousands of similar or more accomplished kids applying to the same schools.
I agree @lookingfoward. A piece of that “it” factor is Intellectual Curiosity - which goes way beyond studying hard and getting near-perfect grades in high school. Many of the supplemental essays required at top schools give the student the chance to show this. Two years down the road, all of those essay prompts blend together - but I’m thinking places like UChicago and Stanford. (The litmus test was whether you could repurpose something you’d already written or if you truly had to think on and write about something totally new). This IC manifests itself in essays–and often in the unique pursuits the student takes up. I do think that’s one place where you’ll see the difference between smart kids with top grades and great scores and kids who truly have that “it” factor. I’d also go out on a limb and say that frequently those with that “it” factor are not the Val and Sal of their class.
@LamarAcademy - part of the reason I started this thread is because we have always just let our kids be kids and now my son has put himself into a situation where he is competing against kids who have been gaming the system for all of high school. My other 2 kids weren’t interested in tippy top schools in a big way. They both had reach schools on their lists but their favorites were all realistic schools for them. I’m not sure my youngest son’s list is realistic for anyone.
So far there are a few LAC that are a tiny bit less selective on his list.
@4Gulls - my son is not Val/Sal. Our school does not do multiples of those spots. The school does two overall awards. One is outstanding student, the other is an overall spirit, leadership, citizenship award. My son won that award this year. It’s a big deal at school although I don’t think colleges really care about it. It is awarded by the faculty/staff.
I think the kids who win this award are the ones you describe as intellectually curious. It usually does go to kids like my son with an unusual combination of interests (sports and Lit Mag). Kids like him can’t really be Val/Sal because classes like Lit Mag/weightlifting are being taken in place of AP classes. The very top kids took 6 APs this year. My son took 4 along with LitMag/World Religions(each a 1 semester honors class) and weighlifting(an unweighted class). Kids like him still have great weighted GPAs but they wind up a tad behind the Val/sal kids.
I don’t believe in forsaking interesting honors classes just to take another AP. Our sons have taken AP classes in core classes where they can handle the material as well as academic electives that they like. If the academic electives they like happen to be AP classes that’s great but if not they have taken what they like. My youngest has taken Poetry, World Religions, Film and Literature, LitMag, and Comparative Governments as academic electives. Only the latter is an AP class. The others were honors. I think this shows more IC than another AP History but I’m not sure selective colleges will agree. Next year he has mor AP electives (US Goverment and Macroeconomics).
Proudpatriot our kids just grew up naturally without concern for selective colleges and did fine with admissions. Your son will end up at the right place for him. Congratulations on the diversity of your kids’ pursuits. Belmont is a great school!
I think that many kids stay involved in activities at their school, which has a lot of social advantage. But doing things outside of school can really expand horizons and deepen interests. I am not suggesting a strategy for college admissions so much as a strategy for growing during teen years.
@proudpatriot that was part of my point. These kids pursue interests and passions without regard to what it will do for their GPA. It’s not about taking the most APs. I don’t think it’s something you can manufacture. It develops organically, often with a bit of serendipity.
This discussion reminds me of a response that one of my former colleagues (who teaches creative writing) gives to grade-grubbing students who ask how to get an A in his class. HIs response is, “If you have to ask, you’re not getting an A.”
It’s kind of jerky and it’s not something I would say to a student, but there is some truth in it. You can’t write rubrics for excellence because excellence transcends rubrics.
Having that award as a junior is a big deal and will help him in his college admissions. He sounds like an interesting kid, who will likely have great recommendations.
But the best piece of advice is to find some great match schools and a good safety. There are lots of schools that can provide a great learning experience, that are outside of the top 15 schools. Any school with a <10% admissions rate rejects many kids who have the “it” factor. One relative aimed really high, thinking her weighted average and very good SAT scores put her in range of top schools (not super elite but still elite). She did not get into any of them. Luckily, she had a safety she liked and where she received merit money. She is very happy there and feels like she is getting a great education.
Is your son taking AP Lit or Lang? AP calc? If not, why not? If those classes are offered at your HS and are the courses that most of the top students take and he is not doing so, it may be more difficult for his application at some super elite schools to get to the point where the It factor matters. Typically, those schools want to see that an applicant did well in the most challenging curriculum. That is unfortunate but often (not always) true. If your HS doesn’t offer those or if the honors English or Math is seen as more challenging, that would be a different story.
Super interesting thread, and what @lostaccount said about that “it” factor. I’ve heard of plenty of lovely academically qualified kids who tried to do all the “right” things and still didn’t get into their dream schools, but so far those kids I’ve encountered with that “it” factor all did get into those schools – and deservedly so. I’m all in favor of hard work, but not so much kids turning themselves inside out to achieve a goal that really might not be the best goal for them.
I also like MIT’s bit on “applying sideways” though it doesn’t really answer the question, just reinforces the notion that kids should do what they do and be who they are, and then show some common sense when choosing their goals. (Not easy, I know.)
(I should add that parents are notoriously bad at recognizing that “it” factor. But teachers are likely to spot it, hence the power of recommendations.)
Depends on the teachers. I think many on CC miss what “it” can be and how IC is conveyed. There’s a whole app to show both, not just transcript or a particular hs activity. Not just "passions, " not just recognition. Right now, we know little about OP’s son.