What make a candidate an "above average" excellent student?

Parents Corner
41

I think your son is in excellent shape for the LACs (with addition of some safer schools of course) on his list if he and the colleges he likes are a good fit for each other. I do agree with the “it” factor mentioned upstream, and what “it” is varies among LACs. There are a certain number of applicants who will get into most/any of those top LACs- truly exceptional candidates- and then there are the more typical “excellent” 17 year old applicants who produce the academic transcript necessary to make the cut and who show (via their essays/ECs/recs) an intangible side that appeals to adcoms. This is the “it” that gives the adcoms an idea of what that applicant will do once on their their campus, what that student will bring/contribute to campus culture, how that applicant will help shape community.

When it comes to LAC admissions I do not think it is a lottery type admissions crapshoot. Could be for HYPS types (don’t know a thing about their admissions), but not for the LACs. Even the tippy top LACs put a ton of thought into applicants that make the academic cut, and they rely on the “it” to push the kid from one pile to another. They aren’t looking for perfectly finished 18 year old machines, they are looking for students with the potential to benefit from 4 years at their institution and for kids whom their institution will benefit from during those 4 years.

The nice thing about this college process is that the applicants can learn so much about themselves. Visiting schools- eliminating and adding choices- helps define the type of community that interests them. The essays allow them to do some serious soul searching, they push them to reflect upon what makes them “tick” so to speak. Listing ECs helps them define their “story”, helps them present their interests in a way that can/should tie academic interests with personal interests. In the end it is a long process for most kids but so worth the effort. And your son will do very will admissions wise if he chooses schools that are a good (mutual) fit. He doesn’t need a ton of schools on his list, just enough reach/match/safe schools to feel confident he can be happy whatever the outcome.

42

@twogirls, This! My oldest is a sophomore in college and hasn’t changed a bit since birth. She’s in a demanding major in a rigorous program but is very involved in activities. This is who she is. And I’ve stopped mentioning anything about her achievements or activities to all but my closest friends after too many sarcastic remarks about her being an overachiever. Even though Max and I are super spies we’re really slacker parents and we’re not sure where this one came from.

@eandesmom - A friend in WA has had two sons go through the process. WA only gives services to the top 2%. The oldest missed it by a hair. The younger one did qualify and he attended what we refer to as the "Malcolm in the Middle school. :slight_smile: He then went to an IB high school. Middle school was the weak link for him.

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@compmom-Belmont is a great school. My son is really happy there. I agree 100% about doing things outside of school. All of my kids did things outside of school, often with adults, during their teen years. They were/are doing things they liked. Oldest was a football coach at the local youth football park. Middle was in the county band, which was mostly adults. The youngest is coaching a club lacrosse team. They liked school stuff also.

@mom2and-He is my third to go to college. I have been down this road. Both of the older ones had reach schools. They got in some and not others. He likes a bunch of other LAC where he is likely to be admitted. My kids go to a private college prep school so tons of AP classes are offered. He has AP Language this year, AP Literature next year. This year he took honors Calc but next year he will have AP Calc. I’m not worried about his academics. Its the other stuff. That said, I wouldn’t push him to take classes he didn’t like just to get into a top school.

@lookingforward-He thinks he belongs with the elite thinkers of his generation. I know that sounds pretty snotty coming from a 17 year old but that is how he sees himself. Most of his list consists of LAC. He only has 3 universities that he is interested in right now. His list is currently pretty long. Once he starts doing apps he will have to shorten it.

@porcupine98 -I agree about parents not really being good at spotting the it factor.

@lr4550 -I agree 100% about visiting. He had some contact with coaches from a few LAC and we visited them and they just were not for him.

Thank you all for your input. It makes me feel better about not pushing him to just take a million AP

44

Nothing wrong with your son wanting to be with peers @Proudpatriot. Both my kids have felt this way. Older one chose a LAC and she’s been very happy with her choice to be around like minded people. Ds is also searching for the same type of intellectual engagement, especially since he’s tired of hanging around us dullards. :slight_smile:

45

@Agentninetynine

It may have been 98%, I have no idea. I do know he was considered special needs through elementary though for services. Which really only mean that one year we got a dedicated bus, the other years we got a “group” bus for all kids in the program from his home elementary and then had to pay for that privilege. Beyond the fact that we did have dedicated self contained classes by grade with a few splits. Which really for him, was the best thing we could have done. His 1st grade teacher tried to discourage us from appealing, in her youth I think not recognizing that those teachers were far more used to dealing with the quirks of that group, including my mild (not officially diagnosed) Aspergers son.

That’s hysterical. And apt. In many ways, IB would’ve been better for S19. Our district doesn’t offer it so we would have had to get an exception and drive him. Just not something I could manage. His core group stays together in math but after that they kind of scatter to the wind.

@Proudpatriot I think “it” is subjective. While there are some kids where it is clear to all that they have “it”, there are others that might seem “it” to some, and not at all to others. I agree that parents cannot see it.

46

I don’t know about the “it” factor. Sure, some people have “it”, but I can think of two kids right now at our HS who really are nothing special, in the eyes of their fellow stduents at least. No sour grapes here, honest. They were surprise admits to Ivy schools. One is a URM, the other is a fairly “average” excellent guy. He kept it quiet for a couple of weeks, and has left all the kids wondering what he did to get in. So there goes my average ecellent theory, right? Haha!

I agree that you can’t really make a rubric, and there will always be exceptions to the “rules” of which there appear to be not many, except for high grades and test scores.

47

I wouldn’t discount that award your son got. The colleges want to create a great learning community. Who will contribute more, the kid who is recognized by the school as being an outstanding community member, or the kid who took an extra AP or two just to get the highest rank (and we know from this site that there are many who are doing this) but was passed over for that recognition? Colleges are looking for students with genuine interests, not the ones who are just gaming the system to get into the most prestigious school. Sometimes it may be hard for them to tell these apart, but I think an award like that from a group of teachers sends a clear message.

48

we call the “it factor” the x factor. My wife came up with an interesting way to measure the amount of x factor needed for admissions at each school. parchment.com has a tool which predicts admissions probability based on your stats. We entered my D stats: 4.0 unw, 33 act, 8aps, white, unhooked female and took a look at the probabilities for her set of schools. Dartmouth stood at something like 25%. My D plans to take the ACT again so we played with that number and eventually entered 36, the top score. Her probability rose to 35%. Her stats were now perfect, we played with the number of APs to no effect. Our conclusion was that 65% dartmouth admittance was based on the X factor (whatever that is).

49

4Gulls, I agree that the students with the “it” factor are likely not to be the school valedictorian or salutatorian. That is because the intellectual curiosity of the “it” student means he/she takes academic risks which can result in lower grades in classes that are tougher or stretches for the student. And, the student is often doing so many things that getting the top grade in the class is a lower priority. Good grades are often the outcome of working hard but not working for grades. Classes are chosen because they are viewed as the most worthwhile for that student, not because they are weighted most. I’ve heard of schools where the valedictorian had the highest GPA because she/he took fewer classes than others-no music or art-because they were not weighted as honor/AP classes. Given two students with identical grades, the one that did not take extra unweighted classes ends up with the higher GPA-but is obviously the less strong student since he/she avoids some pretty important topics. The student with the “it” factor does not put a premium on getting recognition so striving for recognition, which the fight for first place entails, does not garner a lot of the student’s time or effort.

50

“It” can’t be measured in grades, the number of club titles, hours of service, awards, etc. Try thinking of it from a college perspective, not the same old hs box.

Kids with “it” tend to pursue appropriate interests in meaningful ways that expose them to new things, challenge them, and form them. It’s part of “show, not just tell.” And they can express themselves and those interests well, have some perspective on what and why. (This is more than writing good papers for hs classes or winning at debate.) It’s one nice, big “whole.” It can be exciting to find.

Yes, of course they can be val or have great GPAs and lots of APs, run a club or win some award. But just having those is not “it.” Measuring that way is too narrow. It’s not “it” thinking.

It’s not that a kid with “it” ignores recognition, that can come on its own. It’s not even that he defies convention. It’s certainly not that he ignores a higher level of academic challenge or just marches to his own drummer (CC’s darling, “passion.”)

It’s that he’s vibrant, clearly thinking and processing, aiming for something, open to new experiences and already gaining those, knows why…and having a good time, being a good person, and more.

If you rethink holistic, you can probably put some “it” into your kid. I don’t see that as gaming, but growing and empowering.

51

From @lostaccount : " I agree that the students with the “it” factor are likely not to be the school valedictorian or salutatorian. That is because the intellectual curiosity of the “it” student means he/she takes academic risks…"

This is my daughter. She is currently a high school junior, and is ranked #1 out of 550. For her senior year, she has decided that she is not particularly interested in the remaining AP/Honors classes available at her school. She will be taking a minimal set of courses at high school next year… PE, last year of foreign language, etc, to free up her time for courses at the community college. The college courses are not dual enrollment, so they will not appear on her high school record, and her high school GPA will drop. Her HS transcript will look like she slacked her senior year. She will not earn the “Honors Diploma”. She will not be valedictorian. But she is happy with her choice.

But I doubt that she will have enough “it” factor for HYPS, and I can’t afford other top schools. We are looking at large merit scholarships at OOS publics.

52

You can provide the cc transcript. Adcoms will read it.

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@lookingforward - Yes, we assume that colleges will look at her cc transcript and understand the situation. We are not concerned about the impact in college admissions; she is just giving up the recognition at high school graduation.

But I don’t think she would have enough “it” factor for HYPS, whether she went for valedictorian or did her current plan. The chances are so slim.

54

This may be school dependent. I can’t think of the last time one of the vals or sals in our school didn’t get into top notch colleges. They got A’s in their sleep and provided the extra stuff as well.

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“For students who are not one of the above what puts them above the average smart kid?” - I know only one way to success and it does not require genius. I know that I will be attacked for my opinion as it happened on CC many times because others simply did not try it, they did not realize how easily it could be accomplished. The instilled habit of doing your homework well and turning it on time will make a straight A student. The best is to start with the very first tiny assignment way back in kindergarten. This was successful with my D. and both grandkids as my S. utilized the same strategy as was used for her younger sister. Several things are common for all 3 kids in my example. They all are exceptionally busy with un-related ECs and all went to very rigorous HS. Other than that, they were growing up in very different environments, so I am very surprised with the similarities in their approach to academics and all other things in their lives. And their own comments are surprisingly the same: “I am not smart, just doing my homework”

56

What makes you so sure other posters didn’t ask their kids to do their best?

And we’re not just talking about straight A grades, which don’t tell how a kid learned to think and stretched. Your emphasis, DAP is on grades. This thread wanted to know about “more.”

You beg the question: if a kid just does homework, takes easier classes for an A record, has a few clubs or interests, is that all it takes? No.

Your simple formula, just do homework, is very limited growth. It’s a minimum. We aren’t talking about minimums. Not this thread and not many others.

57

Considering that UCLA reportedly could fill their admissions 4 times over with kids who have a 4.0 unweighted, I think we are talking about something other than straight As here.

58

I think if you are going on the “academic” track (eg not a recruited athlete or other really special hook) for schools like HYP you need very top test scores (near perfect) if you come from the vast majority of private and top public schools. Yes, people from states and locales that are unusual for HYP (Alaska, wyoming) might get in with lesser scores, but not those from NYC suburbs etc. After the scores, GPA is next, also near perfect. Next ecs that are not cookie cutter and have been significant to the kid, although I have seen many “packaged” students who got in as well (by this I mean x years music, martial arts or soccer or other sport, and president of whatever club just to build a resume). Although many stress leadership, just having a string of titles (president of the school, class, whatever) are not as important as actually doing something meaningful with the club or experience. There will only be one editor in chief of the college newspapers, but there may be many who were the editor of the high school paper in the college class, for example. All titles are not created equally. Lastly but not least, the essay should be well written and personal to the kid. It should show what kind of person the kid is (in a good way of course). If you go on the college tour circuit, you will here from admissions offices of the many essays not to write (why I want to be a doctor, lawyer etc.) Instead if you want to be a doctor, show how you helped people during your activities and how this might one day lead to a career helping others. If you love biology, how your course stimulated you to do whatever project, its impact and how this research made you want to do research in XYZ at the college, etc. Thankfully, there are many wonderful colleges and lots of places for “average” smart kids.

This said, I have known a few HS vals and sals who were cheaters, and bad character stays with you for life. We read of SAT cheating scandals every year. There were kids who I would vote for most likely to be convicted on insider trading, I am very sorry to say. Make sure that in pursuit of college admissions, this is not your kid and that you don’t send the message of success at any cost. Ok, I know a whole bunch of people are laughing at me now… I am an idealist, and I don’t enjoy knowing people like that.

Frankly, although there are many gifted, talented, ambitious high school students, even with HYP, many want to go on to careers in I banking or hedge funds and just make a lot of money. That is all well and good, since it is a free country, they are entitiled…I like money as much as anyone, but I guess I just have prestige fatigue after all these years. Try to make sure that your kid goes to a college that will prepare him or her for life afterwards. HS should not be just the audition for college, and college not just the audition for grad school or a job. These are important years where character should be built (hard to do once you are grown). A kid should find something that they want to do and would like to do since work lasts a lot longer than college.

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@Proudpatriot It sounds like your son has and the grades test scores. What does your son want to study? What are his EC awards in, what kind of Model UN awards?

I read on one IVY web site that they are looking for students who are the movers and shakers in their community. I bet if your son could hone for the school what his community is and what he has done for his community that might help determine a definition of above average excellence …

another school defines it:
students who possess a record of academic excellence and intellectual curiosity, range of interests and hobbies, leadership skills, and potential impact on our campus.

60

lookingforward,
“You beg the question: if a kid just does homework, takes easier classes for an A record, has a few clubs or interests, is that all it takes? No.” - You stated complete opposite of what is actually in my post, with the exception of one thing, I said that I would be attacked for stating the facts in my life and here I am attacked, very predictable.
Aside from this, I have stated that all kids went to the most rigorous HSs and had tons of ECs. I do not count ECs that are meaningless clubs and I do not count stuff that the whole school is involved like many hours of cleaning the neighborhood or " whatever UN". The ECs included sports with 3 hrs / day, 6 days a week practices, many out of town meets and championships, daily piano practices with result of having Music minor at college, private art lessons outside of school, Medical Lab Research summer job, being School Newspaper Editor with awarded articles. Piling of meaningless clubs is a sigh of some desperation. And I do not think that taking college classes in the hardest for the student class while in HS would be considered the “easy” class.

The only way all those very top HSs could be callled “easy” is when we compare the toughest American HSs to the average HS in some other countries. Yes, then you can call them very easy, because they are. That is why the idea of doing the homework will work here, while it may not be enough at many HSs abroad.
It never occurred to us to create some kind of “stand out” factor. Why? Straight hard work was enough to be accepted to the very selective programs (D’s program had only 10 spots for incoming freshman). No Ivy’s / Elite colleges though, but many who are familiar with the bs / md programs consider them more selective than Ivy’s.
Every family create it’s own path. Ours was simple. Do your homework well, turn it in on time, take the most rigorous classes, participate in everything your heart desires and your will be just fine. No “special, stand out” facts / aspects, straight forward approach that does not require to be a genius.