What makes organic chem so hard in college?

<p>Sharf,</p>

<p>I agree with what you said but it seems a bit off-topic. We are talking about orgo specificly which seems to have a harsh curve (low grade for median/mean) even for grade-inflated schools like Northwestern and Stanford. That's what sakky and I were talking about. I don't think he said curve was unfair, at least not on this thread if I am not mistaken. I loved curve myself because if 90% means A, my transcript would have been full of Cs. It's the generous curve that gave me enough "A". ;) But not all curves in grade-inflation schools are generous, and orgo is usually not one of them. I was an engineer major so I know there are also other engineering classes with harsh curves like you said.</p>

<p>"15% is just a DUMMY number and it doesn't have to be more than 1 std dev below the mean. LOL! The point was a 15% (3% if that makes it easier) below the mean in orgo would be a C whereas in most other classes, it would be something better, like B-."</p>

<p>The 15% was from Sakky's example. He uses the example of his friend receiving a C for scoring 15% below the mean as an example of how harsh curves can be and how harsh curves are therefore the reason orgo is hard. I was simply pointing out that a) receiving a C for scoring 15% below the mean is NOT harsh nor unfair and b) if an orgo class is curved this way, then the curve is very appropriate.</p>

<p>"What grade does a person get if he gets the mean in the orgo class at Cornell? According to <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/10436%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/10436&lt;/a>, the avearge GPA for all classes at Cornell is around 3.34 (B+). Is the mean for the orgo class B+? I'd be very surprised if it is not significantly lower than that."</p>

<p>The mean is curved to a B like most chem and bio classes.</p>

<p>"As for my friend not being strong in orgo, that's a nondefensible statement and you are entitled to your opinion. However, I very much doubt a person not strong in Orgo could have gotten 36 on MCAT (higher than average for Harvard med school admit) without even studying all that hard for it."</p>

<p>I didn't say that your friend is not strong in orgo. I don't know your friend. I said that PERHAPS he is not strong in orgo. If he is as smart as you say and a certain % of people in the orgo class did receive A's (let's say 10%) and he couldn't score in that range for orgo as he has done in other classes, what's to say that he is not simply a little weaker in orgo than in other subjects? </p>

<p>As for the MCAT, I had a grand total of 1 passage (around 9 questions out of 77) on orgo on my form. I know of multiple forms in the August 2005 administration that were deficient in orgo. It is very possible to score high and not be very good at orgo. And, let's face it, B+ in orgo is still a very good grade. </p>

<p>Look, there's no doubt orgo is one of the more challenging classes in any school. I'd place it as one of the top 3 toughest classes I've taken at Cornell. I'm simply saying that it's reputation has been exagerrated. In many cases, it is not this impossible, cutthroat, unfair class that you and sakky seem to be promoting.</p>

<p>
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The 15% was from Sakky's example. He uses the example of his friend receiving a C for scoring 15% below the mean as an example of how harsh curves can be and how harsh curves are therefore the reason orgo is hard. I was simply pointing out that a) receiving a C for scoring 15% below the mean is NOT harsh nor unfair and b) if an orgo class is curved this way, then the curve is very appropriate.

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<p>Uh, no, norcalguy, you misread my example. Read my example again. He didn't get a C for scoring 15% below the mean. He got at best a D, and probably an F for scoring 15% below the mean. That's because the class was curved to a C+, not a B. </p>

<p>So you say that getting a C is appropriate for somebody scoring 15% below the mean. So then do you agree with me that getting a D or an F is then too harsh? And then you would have to agree with me that if an Ochem class was curved to a C+ (and not to a B as you have said), then it is NOT appropriate, right? I think you have to agree. </p>

<p>Again, I reiterate my main point. The REAL problem is with the variability in the grading. Sometimes you can do very poorly and STILL get a top grade anyway. Scoring a standard deviation below the mean might translate to a grade anywhere from an A- to an F. That's the problem. There is no set standard. Hence, a guy who does poorly in one class may still end up with a better grade than a guy who does extremely well in another class. Or even the same class, but taught by different profs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If he is as smart as you say and a certain % of people in the orgo class did receive A's (let's say 10%) and he couldn't score in that range for orgo as he has done in other classes, what's to say that he is not simply a little weaker in orgo than in other subjects?

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<p>The point is he's likely as good in orgo as in other classes. For example, if orgo awards top 10% A while another class, such as physiology I, awards top 30% A and you barely make top 20% on both, you would get a B in orgo while you get A in physiology. </p>

<p>If the mean at Cornell is curved to B, then the orgo isn't particularly harder than others AT CORNELL. So I guess Sakky and I should have pointed out it depends on schools you go to. However, at Northwestern and Stanford, orgo is harder than others because the mean is curved to B-/C+. At Northwestern, pretty much half the class get C+/C or below which is unusual for a grade-inflated school. Many others schools, as Sakky pointed out, seem to adopt similar grading for orgo.</p>

<p>your on the medical boards alot saaky- virtually every thread</p>

<p>im a high school student applying to colleges, go to NYC - hoping to get into cornell... just curious to what you do for a living... i dont see why thats so personal, im not asking for your e-mail, or any form of contact information</p>

<p>I know why organic chem is so hard because I just went through it. A lot of people memorize things or patterns (biology) and other memorize equations. In organic chemistry it is completely different! You have to memorize not only a lot of reactions and various forms and groups but you have to be able to VISUALIZE them. This is why I was very good at orgo.</p>

<p>With math I need to visualize the line going to zero to find the limit of the sequence. With physics I need to visualize that when capacitance goes down, charge goes up if voltage stays the same. Most of the people (engineers or bio majors) don't visual math or phyics like I need to. Their brains mostly work with equations (so one variable goes down, another goes up, it's obvious, easy) or they can plug in numbers. But with orgo most of my engineer friends were like "Where are the equations?!" & "I can't visualize this!" It's a very much you get it or you don't type deal. You can learn others but with orgo it is very non-bell curve.</p>

<p>You might be able to fudge your lack of knowledge but since it isn't multiple choice (you will be expected to draw and explain) you often can't do that. They are often drawn-out (as in lengthy) and hard to visualize and that on top of memorizing all of the other information that is needed to solve the same problem. Also, although you will learn the reactions and how they work in class, applying them to a compound you have never seen or using them to go from one compound to the next (synthesis) can be very challenging. Orgo chem problems can be EXTREMELY hard.</p>

<p>For all of you who really want to know, here are some sample questions from my accelerated organic chem course with methods to solve and maybe even answers if possible (this is what ChemE's take but there were pre-meds in my course thinking this was going to help them on their MCATS [I know one got a D. Yikes!]):</p>

<p>1) Create the steps of synthesis (drawing the intermediates of each step) to get from (n-hydroxl-propyl)-cyclohexane [structure is given to you] to (2-carbonyl-pentyl)-cyclohexane [structure is given to you].</p>

<p>For this problem you would need the knowledge of many different reactions to get rid of the alcohol, add on to the chain, and add a ketone. It's sort of like a puzzle. What will it take to get me from here to there? Very analytical and not really the usual thought process of engineering or pre-medical students in these classes (unlike me, who just loved this crap for some reason). The different and various reactions would have already been learned (we learned over 80 I think) and committed to memory over the course of the semester. Even if you know all the correct reactions to reach the finished. It still isn't even that easy because you need to know the intermediates and the stereochemistry of each reaction (will the resulting product be Markovnikov or anti-Markovnikov) because you don't want to add the right functional group in the wrong place either. Very complex and many parts.</p>

<p>2) Draw the mechanism [transfer of electrons and bonding steps through VERY specific single- or double-winged arrows] and product of trans-2-butene [structure is given to you] when reacted with borane (BH3) & THF and then NaOH, and hydrogen peroxide, HOOH (I think those are the right reagents heh).</p>

<p>For this problem you would need to remember what that combination of reagents did and how they did it (they add an anti-Markovnikov hydroxide functional group, which is -OH, for the formation of 2-butanol) and then the stereochemistry on the product (which is cis now) needs to be considered as well. From the hard to the extremely complex where some of the reactions like borane or ozonalysis are many confusing steps and then have follow-up reagents to close of the reaction. And of course make sure you draw all of the arrows not only on the paper but to the correct places, very precise stuff here.</p>

<p>Final ones 3) Explain using molecular obital theory why multi-step substitution, SN1, goes faster on a tertiary carbon rather than a primary carbon.</p>

<p>First you would need to remember the right substitution reaction. Second, you would need to remember what a primary and tertiary carbons are and the differences. Third, you would need to think how you would use obitals to explain it. You would have to include the words hyperconjugation, stable cation, and p-orbitals (+ drawings) to explain it.</p>

<p>4) Explain using MOT whether 3-methyl-cyclopropene or 3-methyl-cyclopropane [structures are given to you] is more acidic.</p>

<p>For this problem you would need to remember the differences why something would be basic. Usually alkenes are less basic than alkenes so using approx pka probably wouldn't help. What makes an acid? Easy removal of hydrogen. If you took away the most easily removed hydrogren and left a cation which would be more unstable and/or more likely to want to keep the hydrogen. It is obviously the ene which is more unstable because in cation form it fits the definition of an anti-aromatic compound (benzene is aromatic) which are some of the most unstable compounds and are usually physically impossible to form. The other wouldn't be good either but as aromatics are some of the most stable compounds in chemistry (considering the number of double bonds and cyclic nature of these compounds in the first place) anti-aromatics are the least stable and thereby the second, cyclopropane would be more likely to lose a hydrogen making it more acidic.</p>

<p>Those are very good sample questions as to what to expect. Of course my course was accelerated and probably much harder than one you would have to take. But for all others who want to know about orgo (chems, chemEs) here's your answer. It will be all the same ideas at least even if not in depth. I'm sick of people having a week or two of orgo in high school and just saying, "It's all just memorization." which it isn't. At least in my course, it wasn't. So anyone who needs to can copy this for any other orgo forums or direct them to this one.</p>

<p>Oh yeah btw, my classes (physics, calc, engineering) are usually curved to a B-/C+. In my orgo it was curved to a C. More kids got D's than A's. It was a steep, scary-ass curve.</p>

<p>Good lord. O.O. Dude what did you get in Orgo btw? That is some crazy ass ****, let me tell you. I kind of understood it, but there's no way I could have solved those problems. Whew. Would you recommend taking Orgo as your only hard class in a year? And your other credits are padding/easier classes? I was thinking about that becuase it's clear getting a good grade in O-Chem is important for med school.</p>

<p>Questions 2-4 are relatively easy and straight forward. Requires understanding of concepts but relatively easy if you understand them.</p>

<h1>1 (synthesis problems) are probably the toughest kinds of problems you'll encounter on orgo tests. Sometimes you can sit there for an hour without coming up with the correct pathway to arrive at the product or sometimes you end up with a mixture of products (which is usually good for 50% credit only).</h1>

<p>Yeah it's only the lucky few that get the #1 easily. Others have to work at it. I described how I look at it though. Like a puzzle. I forgot the problems where it is like here's the beginning and here's the end, what's the middle? I like that way of thinking.</p>

<p>As far as stanford_dude, yeah I did well but not as well as I wanted to (made stupid mistakes on the final even though I got an A on every exam). It was the only grade I was disappointed in. Boo. :(</p>

<p>And yes the chem advisor does advise orgo as the only science class. Some can but as a chemE I couldn't and had absolutely no padding at all. I also had Calc 3, Physics Electricity and Magnetism, Mass & Energy Balances (ChemE), and Acc Orgo Lab. It was a doozy of a semester to say the very least. It's definitely do-able but it is a very easily get it or have to work a lot subject. I worked hard and luckily it came very easily to me. To most it doesn't so I don't know.</p>

<p>And norcalguy is right. I was just giving reasonable examples of problems you would see. There are others but those I gave are on the harder side. Many problems would be a step or two or given the starting material and reagents, draw the product with stereochemistry and regiochemistry. There are not many equations the only equation I remember using was G = H + TS to explain endothermic vs exothermic qualities. If you are serious about it and try, you will do decently (I know some kids that studied a lot and still couldn't get it, but again it's accelerated, but I'm not guaranteeing an A by studying really hard). It is more important that you understand it. It is easier if you learn in a certain way but if you don't you only have to develop a system like I have to for my other subjects (math & physics) and I am doing relatively well in engineering so it is obviously possible to do well for anyone. I'm just stating that it is much more of a comign naturally to some and hard for others.</p>

<p>The biggest thing is just the completely different way of thinking from any of your other core subjects. It is many different things: memorization many different complex processes (many reactions, we had over 80), new concepts and things (different types of isomers [difference between enantiomers vs diastereomers or regiochemistry vs stereochemistry] and functional groups) on a large scale (we rapidly went through about every single functional group in less than one lecture), different way of thinking of chemistry than ever learned in high school (which focuses on the what rather than why and how [like for instance you will learn about calculating raising entropy and lowering energy in gen chem but in orgo you will find out that orbitals and bonding and different solvents will induce reactions to be more likely rather than just the example of lowering in energy with numbers]) or in previous classes. Anybody else have any more ideas? I didn't really struggle with it, so anybody who did?</p>

<p>i feel like a complete idiot asking this after having read all of your guys amazing posts, but what's the difference between grade-inflated schools and grade-deflated schools?</p>

<p>I'll give you some extreme examples (but examples that I've seen in real life).</p>

<p>A class where a guy barely shows up to class, barely does any of the work, freely admits that he has no idea what the heck is going on, and even worse, doesn't WANT to know what is going on in class. But he gets a final course grade of an A-. That's grade inflation.</p>

<p>Another class where a girl studies day and night, spending hours and hours studying all the time, and demonstrates excellent command of the material. But she ends up with a final course grade of a C+. She doesn't dare complain because she knows that her C+ was one of the better grades given out in the class, as she knows that plenty of other people worked hard too but got D's and F's. That's grade deflation.</p>

<p>Does anyone know what the UCR pre-med program is like and its level of harshness?</p>