What matters? Abilities or Connections? And where does social class fit in?

Parents Forum
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<p>"If the college admission game is really about social class, then why not say it is about social class?"</p>

<p>It is about social class. (for that small fraction of students, no more than 75,000, mostly white, the majority well-to-do, trying to crowd into 50 or so "most selective" colleges and universities.)</p>

<p>""Where should my kid go so he has the best chance to maintain or move up in social class?" </p>

<p>My alma mater -- College #1 -- would be an excellent choice, although two weeks ago, a football player came very close to murdering another student over an ex-girl friend.</p>

<p>"Then I can leave this board."</p>

<p>So I won't start the thread. ;)</p>

<p>"Until then, so, should I send my kid to SDSU or should I pay up so he has a batter chance to maintain his social class?"</p>

<p>Yous pays your money, so yous takes your choice.</p>

22

<p>Mini, lol.</p>

<p>Daderoo, of course social class is not just dependant on money.
Where you received your education is important too. That's why I used the bag lady example.</p>

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<p>DStark, I'd start that thread out of perversity except that a) my D is already in college and b) I'd hate to see you go.</p>

<p>Your original question raises in my mind some questions in return about what correlates with what and whether it's correlation or causality. One of my Lefty acquaintances (who sneers at me for being a conservative patsy!) has berated me many times for being blind to issues of class...and while I'm not blind to them, I'm perhaps near-sighted, perhaps having swallowed too much as a child the notion of American equality, notions which, as I've grown older, I've certainly seen many localized refutations of.</p>

<p>In short, I don't often think in explictly class terms, at least in socioeconomic dimensions. But I look at the colleges that my D applied to and others that she didn't but which I regard highly, a sample list being: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Smith, Wellesley, Barnard, U/Chicago, Tufts, Georgetown, Middlebury, Bryn Mawr, Swarthmore, Amherst. And then I look at those where she consciously didn't apply or where I shuddered at the though, privately or not: UC Irvine, Skidmore, U/Arizona, Cal State Long Beach, U/Oklahoma as samples. What I <em>see</em> is a difference in, for lack of a better term, overall intellectual environment and academic vibrancy. What another <em>could</em> see is a class difference, with only Skidmore of the second list being somewhat "toney."</p>

<p>Is there a class difference? I'm forced to say "yes" though I never would have thought about it in that terms.</p>

<p>As to what you know vs. who you know, that question is unusually salient at the moment in terms of D's internship prospects. Based on what she knows, she has come to the attention of a couple of people who are alumnae of her college and are unusually well placed to help. Could this same pattern repeated elsewhere? Almost certainly. Is this same pattern much more likely at schools on my first list than on the second? Given the nature of the alumnae placements, almost as certainly.</p>

<p>Cf., Nature vs. Nature = both.</p>

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<p>I have a slightly different story. It begins at a community college, then on to a 4th tier state school, actually a few of them, until 10 years after starting on a BA it actually came. In those 10 years, I lead research-treatment programs at major (top-tier) medical centers, founded learning centers, worked with NASA and other agencies, founded a laboratory, and became friends with the leaders in my field. Where I went to college was responsible for all of it. I was inspired by a community college teacher, fully supported by a university president, (who at one time was a personal political advisor to Howard Hughes, and who introduced me to many in that inner circle), made friends with people who became federal judges, CIA officers, college professors at elite universities, editors of major newspapers, and some who never really worked except to manage the family fortune (my goofy roommate for one). In those years I learned to plan, execute on ideas, overcome obstacles, the value of friendship, and most of all to keep laughing. The examples of grace under fire and extraordinary political cunning displayed by the college president and student activists I came know were a huge influence. I doubt I could have had that experience elsewhere.</p>

<p>Later, I attended graduate school at one of those elite colleges where my contemporaries where primarily from the Ivy League and similar schools. I was shocked by how little worldly experience they had (though, I admit, I was older than most), and how little difference there was in our knowledge base or skills. The graduate school made a huge difference in my world view, not because of the peer group, but of the rigor of the thinking required. I'll never forget my first lab meeting with my advisor. I was asked what I was interested in studying. I described my "heartfelt" interests. My advisor looked at me, and with a crooked smile said, "You will change your mind once we teach you how to think." From that moment on I was hooked, and gave my all. The contacts that came from my associations in graduate school have been enormously helpful in my life in the public and private sector, (including a wife of 25 years) and while the associations in grad school helped solidify my intellectual base, and extend my personal contacts to include some of the world's wealthiest people, I attribute most of my personal success to those first 10 years, beginning with the community college. It was those years that spawned the entrepreneurial qualities that have guided my life to date, and made it all rather exciting. It was not the undergraduate degree or the name on it that mattered, (no one has ever asked) it was the people and experiences.</p>

<p>Both, quite different, academic experiences have guided my advice to my kids. No intense college preparation, take challenging courses, but don't forget about art, music, photography, and yes even a shop class, no planned EC's, little SAT or ACT prep, 8 hours of sleep a night (more if one can get it), go to college where it feels right, we will find a way to get you accepted to just about anywhere if thats what you want, but just about any place is okay. So far, so good, S accepted to his first choice and is very happy, one S left to go. Our family motto, borrowed from that roommate, "nothing beats fun," guides most of our decisions. The goal is to make everything fun, opportunity and excitement lie around that next corner, and wherever it may be.</p>

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<p>Sorry to be a contrarian, but if you think that sending your kid to the "right school" is somehow deterministic of the rest of their life I've got a bridge to sell you.</p>

<p>There was a great article about Harvard a few years ago (someone who is more internet savvy than I-- please find it) which talked about H's incredible fundraising ability. The university knows that for a rather substantial percentage of the class, the only distinctive thing they've ever done was attend Harvard..... and so by playing to that they do a bang-up job with class gifts, mostly from ordinary people with ordinary jobs who have ordinary friends and no fantastic connections.... but once upon a time they went to Harvard.</p>

<p>It's easy to look at the Supreme Court justices or the Managing Directors of Goldman Sachs and decide that Harvard or Yale is going to give your kid a lifetime of networking opportunities. However.... the sample size of Supremes and MD's is very very small, and the likelihood that your kid will be one of them is also very, very small, even though those two careers are reasonably meritocratic once you get your foot in the door.</p>

<p>I was a first generation American who attended an IVY and yes, I knew some very rich kids there, and was even friends with some of them. We correspond occasionally and see each other at reuniions, but their current social networks are people they meet at "the club", and play golf with. I'm just not part of their daily life-- we all make choices, and I made mine, and I'm thrilled with mine, so don't get me wrong. However, my daughter is as likely to make her debut at the Metropolitan Club as I am to sprout wings and fly.... so my social connections from 30 years ago aren't a really relevant part of my current life.</p>

<p>I'm also in touch with some of my "ordinary" college friends (i.e. not off the Mayflower, don't have a pavilion at the Metropolitan museum named for the family, etc.) and guess what.... they're social workers, teachers, librarians, even some very successful Dr.s and lawyers, several artists. I don't think any of them have Power networks leftover from college.... just friends from a long time ago when we were young and had more hair.</p>

<p>Having said that, my college years were life-altering for me. I can quote almost verbatim from several awe-inspiring lectures I heard from truly gifted professors; I read things I'd never been exposed to; I sat in seminars with kids who had deep and powerful intellects even at 19 and 20 and it was gut-wrenching to see how much there was to learn about the world. I draw upon this education every single day and am profoundly grateful for the opportunity I had, and for the taxpayers who subsidized my loans, and the generous alums who made various scholarships possible.</p>

<p>Networking? I don't think so, but worth every single penny.</p>

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<p>Thedad, if somebody starts that thread, I probably won't leave. (Wow, I was being dishonest. I hate that. )</p>

<p>"Is there a class difference? I'm forced to say "yes" though I never would have thought about it in that terms."</p>

<p>If you are unsure about the answer, the answer is yes. </p>

<p>You went to UCSB, and the posts you write are at least as good as those written by private school people. Or is my reading comprehension poor? :)</p>

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<p>Idad, and your son goes to which community college?</p>

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<p>Until I got to Blossom's last full paragraph, I was going to ask her exactly the question she answered there. Did she and maybe her children benefit from the "social class" enhancement that came in part from her education? Apparently Yes.</p>

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<p>Reading various threads, one often comes across postings asserting that the poster went to a third or fourth tier college and did fine, so why shouldn't the next generation do the same and everyone else is just wasting money on misplaced notions. But, you seldom see a post that says, yes, I got a premium education but, considering what I have seen on the job and learned in life, I advised my child to go to a significantly lower ranked school because it is cheaper and "just as good."</p>

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<p>I went to community college, but perhaps you are being facetious. My S does not attend a community college, but if he chose to do so it would be fine with me. My second son, who is an all around better student that my older one, is leaning toward the University of Hawaii, and I'm fully supportive (and hoping personal visions of campus visits are not clouding my judgment).</p>

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<p>Daderoo, your post 29 is correct. And the reason why is always education. It is never about social class.</p>

<p>Idad's post was interesting. I know many people like him, people that have done well after going to no-name schools. Once they make it, they don't want their own kids to go to no-name schools.</p>

<p>Well, Idad, I wrote this before reading your post #30. You will be an exception.</p>

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<p>Creative professions are few and far between in the lower socioeconomic circles. The poor do not have time or money to waste on art or architecture. If the arts happen to be your life's interest, you will gravitate to or stay close to, those classes which can afford to appreciate art.</p>

<p>That said, I agree with idad. There are three thousand places around the world to find that milieu, not 50. </p>

<p>My S1 is loving his experience at his 'lesser than 50' school. The professors are hypnotic. The course listing is deep. He's met some incredible intellects and theologians among his peers. He's started taking 500 level classes. He travels during the summers. He is on fire in the classic university sense--and that was going to happen at all of his choices--even his safety. So says me.</p>

<p>You may also be stressing too much about the word 'fit' dstark. I freely admit that our family prefers a 'fit' in a university community which treasures the arts. That, by definition, does have class connotations. </p>

<p>The biggest 'fit' issue for my son, however, was size. He did not want a small school. He still doesn't like the ones he visits.</p>

<p>Is size a tolerable 'fit' issue, or must we wear the bourgeoisie label for that too? ;)</p>

<p>As an aside, have you ever watched well-meaning middle class friends move their children downward as a social statement? I have. On the Upper West Side and in leafy lefty suburbs of academia. Given the terrible fallout, I thought those families made rotten decisions--especially as the parents rarely adopted the experiment for themselves.</p>

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<p>On the subject of social class, as somehow defined, I had various jobs when young that involved working with socially-lower class people, including farm labor, small-time retail, and (most lucrative) assembly line labor. This experience was important to my understanding of the world, then and now, and I am just a little bit disappointed that my child has had less of this exposure to life. But, did I want to go to college with people of a different educational background? Did I have an ambition to spend my life in a "class" with a different educational background? Would I like to maximize my child's chances of doing the same? If so, guess where he applies to college?</p>

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<p>My kids have grown up with kids from all social classes, and if anything more from lower classes than higher ones. They've held jobs like waitressing. I also held retail jobs in high school. When picking a college, the idea of "social class" wasn't something they thought about. It was more about an academic environment...my kids craved more challenging academic environments. Sure, that kind of school attracts more of certain classes than others but it was more that they were looking for challenge and for being amongst motivated students. I must say they both know a lot of rich kids in college though we are not rich. I feel like my kids can mix with all kinds. They may have friends at home who live in subsidized housing, yet have college buddies who own three homes (several do). They've been exposed to all types. Today, one of my D's is enroute to Appalachia. My husband was commenting that she likely is the one kid in her group who won't find the setting so different because the size of the town she just arrived at (she just called that she arrived as I typed this post) is the size of our town and we have rural poor as well. </p>

<p>So, my kids did pick schools where the intellectual climate was of the sort they were desiring but the concept of social class and choosing for those reasons is not in their psyche.</p>

<p>One thing my kids valued and wanted in a college was more diversity and sometimes the more selective colleges have more different types of kids from all over and from different backgrounds at least compared to had they gone to UVM, our state university.</p>

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<p>Daderoo, I don't get how you got "social class" out of Blossom's last paragraph, but I guess you find what you are looking for. It sounds as if she is talking about an academic experience, to me, much like Soozie subsequently described.</p>

<p>I started school at a small LAC with mostly Upper Middle Class students. I hated it--a bunch of rich slackers drinking away every weekend. I transfered to a state school, but it was UMich, and in every way, it was a more "elite" school than the LAC I started at, though the students were on the whole lower down the economic scale than the first school.</p>

<p>In every way, I found there the same life-changing, world-opening experience that Mini and Blossom described. Not because of the socio-economic class of the students, but because of the depth of the academics, and the intellectual thirst of my classmates in the Honors Program. these things don't belong to a class.</p>

<p>So I disagree that it is about "social class," unless you think intellectual vitality is connected to class. I don't.</p>

<p>We don't live a UMC lifestyle. And i doubt my kids will aspire to it. Sorry, Dstart, i do think it's about fit, not social class. My kids tend to hang with the less wealthy at their schools, they are not much interested in the country club scene.</p>

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<p>The op, dstark, said "of course social class is not just dependant on money." I said, "It might depend on the definition of "social class." For me what matters is some sort of "educational class" or "cultural class" (along with the best possible academic talent)." The British, who have some experience with this, define socal class in a way that has a lot to do with the parents' level of education and type of employment. In any case, I would never have brought such terms to this board.</p>

<p>But, I want to concur with Blossom or Soozievt or anyone else who "pick schools where the intellectual climate was of the sort they were desiring" or had the experience that Blossom had at her Ivy. At least for me, it is certainly not about the money or the life-long connections. Please tell me if you think these experiences are identical to those available at the schools the op considers to be equal.</p>

<p>[I would have assumed that U. of Michigan placed pretty high on any relevant scale (and that most Cal States don't, but to each his own), and I can well believe that certain LACs are disproportionately populated by spoiled whatevers.]</p>

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<p>well, dstark - my older son is going to SDSU. (And idad - his best friend is transferring to SDSU next year from U of Hawaii. Go figure) My son #2 will probably be attending UCSB next year, although that decision hasn't been made yet. Both of my parents were Stanford grads - maybe it's rebellion, maybe I'm just devolving, but I'm a California public school guy from the get-go, and have no real urge for my kids to be anything else. I'll admit, my personal (strictly anecdotal) experience with people from different college "tiers" doesn't move me to ivy-worship. Three of the least impressive individuals I've know, of different generations, were all Harvard grads. On the other hand, a surprising (to me) number of men in my community whom I consider to be successful on more than one level turn out to have graduated from Chico State. I think you do learn different attitudes and skills at different types of colleges - the question is: which set will be most useful to your kid in his or her adult life? Get out your crystal ball for that one...</p>

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<p>If you want to see how "social class" figures into the equation, all you have to do is look at the USNWR rankings for Berea. Here's a school with one of the 5 or 6 highest endowment to student ratios in the United States. Full scholarships to every student. Virtual and continuing 100% med school admission rate. Strong, committed, long-term faculty. Magnificent campus. Percentage accepted in the 20s (far lower than the University of Chicago), despite the fact that 1) it is in rural Kentucky! and 2) Maximum allowable income maxes out for most people at around $54k annually. Avg. SAT scores, after adjusting for income, roughly the same as Middlebury.</p>

<p>Ever heard of it spoken of as a "prestige" college? Or a place for "intellectually stimulating conversation" or "life of the mind"? There is very little that Amherst, Middlebury, Swarthmore, etc. have, in the total scheme of things, that Berea doesn't, except....</p>

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<p>Dadaroo, if you are implying that my children benefited somewhat vicariously from my college experience, than for sure.... it "paid off". I love to read; they love to read. We never could afford the swim club or tennis lessons or any of the other stuff that a lot of kids take for granted but we were at the library every week.</p>

<p>They grew up in a verbal household-- they asked questions, my husband (who is endlessly patient) must have explained the mechanics of a car and why a bicycle doesn't tip over about 50 times. We limited the TV, owned no video games or playstations or whatevers, and made them do chores. They never got paid for making beds or folding laundry; that's the contribution you make to keeping a household running.</p>

<p>So-- yes, they benefited from having college educated parents in many ways both subtle and not. However, from what I've observed about how the elites raise their kids, my children were definitely not raised in an upper class or upper middle class environment or style. My college friends who came from the upper social strata spent far less time with their parents than my kids spent with me; their summers were spent "at the club", with mostly peers and a few adults such as the golf pro; their parents traveled constantly and left them home with nannys and whatever; holidays were usually a perfunctory meal at home followed by a race to the airport to get to some ski destination or some island. I'm not knocking it; some of these people turned out to be fine, upstanding adults who work hard, give back, and have an enormous appreciation for how other people live, but for sure I wouldn't raise kids that way even if I could afford a house in Barbados and the condo in Vail.</p>

<p>I would have turned out fine regardless of where I went to college. I know my parents didn't give a hoot about the social class or connections to be gained from college; they wanted me in a place where I could be immersed in learning for four years before life kicked in and I had to earn a living. For me, doing it in a place which was most decidedly not pre-professional, where students took academics very seriously, and where rich kids were really nice to people like me who had never heard of "the city" or "greenwich" and didn't know where La Jolla was, felt like heaven on earth.</p>

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<p>I hope some of us are in agreement that it is not about the money, the connections for making money (as opposed, possibly, to connections for getting into grad school, say), or the subsequent economic life-style. It is (at least in some cases) about the academic and intellectual atmosphere and opportunities of the college, which are influenced in substantial part by one's fellow classmates. Their background, interests and talents (but not especially their financial situation) can make a huge difference in one's college education and one's subsequent life (but not necessarily one's financial success).</p>