<p>I think saying that no body has heard of top schools outside of Wa boundaries is saying that it is provincial.</p>
<p>* Forget the top 20 Lacs or the Browns or Dartmouths of the world - not 2 in a 100 have ever heard of them*</p>
<p>Garland, I don't know why social standing is important, but it is for most people. Not everybody. And it doesn't mean everybody wants to be in the upper class. When you ask a person what class they are in, they almost always say middle class.</p>
<p>I was involved in a very unscientific study where you ask kids from different schools if there was a hierarchy in a school. Almost everybody said yes. </p>
<p>We got a pyramid of ranking social groups.</p>
<p>I'm not going to draw a pyramid (I don't know how), but it looked something like this from top to bottom. </p>
<p>Students who have had sex
Good looking students
Athletes
Students who were relatively rich
Students who had their own cars
Students who are intelligent but don't show it
drama kids
druggies
nerds who spend all their time in the libraries
goth kids</p>
<p>Then you ask kids what do you think the hierarchy will look like when you are adults and the nerds move way up. but below good looking people and athletes. Druggies dropped to the bottom.</p>
<p>Similar to the way people are looked at in society?</p>
<p>Mini, I have had Veblen's book sitting on my desk for 2 years and I am embarassed to say I haven't read it.
I know I should.</p>
<p>Mini, great link.</p>
<p>"I think saying that no body has heard of top schools outside of Wa boundaries is saying that it is provincial."</p>
<p>Well, that is true - but I fail to see how that makes us provincial, as opposed to those schools (which enroll so few anyway, and even fewer from here) actually being irrelevant.</p>
<p>Dstark (and Mini, too): is social standing important to you, in whatever way you define it?</p>
<p>I looked up BYU
twice as large of faculty student ratio as UW, graduation rate equal to UW- cost less than $9,000 to attend * including * room and board- no wonder they have a lot of applicants!,( average finaid package is over $4,00) but still their acceptance rate is higher than UW even more than Seattle U or WSU, and their scores and stats are similar-
I was pretty surprised to see they don't have a higher alumni giving rank, being that church members are required to tithe. Although they are a private school, their alumni giving rate is right along side public schools like University of Alabama and Kansas.</p>
<p>I still don't understand why so many are in Olympia, they don't really make their presence known in Seattle.</p>
<p>I didn't say " I thought" Olympia was provincial, only that your descriptions of it on this thread and others make it sound like " you" think it is.</p>
<p>I don't think most places in the US are any more, although there are probably some places that would like to be less aware.</p>
<p>Mini, that link is going to keep me very busy, thanks.</p>
<p>"Dstark (and Mini, too): is social standing important to you, in whatever way you define it?"</p>
<p>Garland, I like where I live. I like to eat out. I like to vacation where I want.
I care very little about material goods. I like people who are introspective, and honest, who question their beliefs and thinking. People who are conflicted in their thinking. </p>
<p>I like to observe what is happening and try to figure out what is happening, not what people say is happening.</p>
<p>The link Mini gave us was titled "Class Matters". When you look at society as a whole, it does.</p>
<p>so it may be important to others, but not to you. Great! We agree! :)</p>
<p>Now, does it play a role in society as a whole, of course it does. We agree again.</p>
<p>Seems like we had two different discussions going on here.</p>
<p>Garland, I would like to say it doesn't totally matter to me, but it does matter in some respects.</p>
<p>This doesn't mean I want to be in the upper class. I don't and with my upbringing, I could never be in the upper class. :)</p>
<p>It affects me in subtle ways. Ways that I don't even know. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
That said, Id rather my daughter get the degree from a prestigious LAC than VTC because of the experience in the classroom and the dorms. But it has absolutely nothing to do with advancing her social status, and everything to do with academic stimulation both in and out of the classroom, and diversity. And I do agree with the person who said that having a degree from a prestigious school can open doors but how far off the threshold you get depends on you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A fair summary of my take as well. I give props to DStark for starting this topic because, even if it's muddled, it's one of the more though provoking on CC.</p>
<p>Mini put it better than I did earlier: I swallowed the myth of a "classless" society as a kid and it took me a long time to disgorge it and on some reflex level I'm sure it's not completely gone.</p>
<p>The issue <em>is</em> complex, both in dessicated theory and messy practice.</p>
<p>Dstark; I'd be interesting in what ways you think it might matter to you. How it affects is easier to see. Here's one example: When my D was at Wesleyan, it soon became obvious to her that she didn't know most of the references students were making in her government classes. Most had had AP Euro, for instance--we don't teach that furrin' stuff at our HS. she and a kid from rural Wisc would take notes on all the references they didn't know, then go the library together to research what they all meant. I remember her calling to say, in amazement, "Mom, did you know there were two Russian revolutions?!"
Oh well. She is still passionately adamant that she wants her kids to have the same upbringing she had, and the same kind of public schools. Her reasoning is you can play catch up later on the intellectual stuff, but that she's socially much more comfortable and flecible than her friends who had standard UMC upbringings/schools, etc.</p>
<p>So I think you can't so much control the effects, but you can try to figure out why and if it matters to yourself.</p>
<p>Dstark....when you asked if social class was important to others and its relation to college selection....it seems to me that you have assumed and even said that it apparently is but that people don't want to admit it. I'm sure it is for some people. But it is not for all. When posters like myself mention that it never entered into our kids' consciousness in selecting colleges....social class or where that college name might lead them down the line as far as class or income levels....you don't seem to believe us....that our kids chose challenging or selective schools simply for the educational environment that suited their learning style and interests but not so much where that name of school might lead them in life or class status. You asked but please accept our genuine responses. </p>
<p>I am accepting that we each come from different communities, backgrounds, experiences and perspectives. I can appreciate that in certain communities, class standing is important to folks and prestige is important and in fact, it is a competitive atmosphere. I realize that people who may live in such communities are speaking from those experiences of what they feel or observe in others around them. So, I accept observations that you have made in SOME people. But that is not ALL people. </p>
<p>I can concur with what Sly_VT wrote and in fact, she lives about 25 miles from me and so our communities have some similarities, though mine is more rural than hers. I did not grow up as poor as she may have. I grew up in another state in a suburban community where social class was a more important issue, let alone higher than here :D. But here in my VT rural community, social class is not seen in the same light. It is not competitive. In fact, people of ALL classes MIX....if I had a big font, I'd put a big emphasis on that word, "mix", unlike they do back in my hometown in suburbia. For instance, my parents mixed only with folks in their social class (had not too much to do with education or colleges attended, however). Their friends were in similar socio-economic class. They have no poor friends. Most of their friends are the same race and religion even. Very different than my experience here in rural VT and in fact, my parents often would comment on that fact when they saw the people I "mix" with or they attend my kids' events here. Here, nobody cares what colleges I went to and most have no idea. They will know that my husband and I are college educated or don't have blue collar jobs but not much more than that. Those with educations and professions mix with the local farmers, truck drivers, oil delivery guys, waitresses, retail clerks, tellers, and so on. Nobody seems to care who has what so much. I could attend an event in town or at school and mix and socialize with folks who live in the trailer park as much as those who own two homes and send their kids to elite boarding schools. That just is how it is here. I may have more in common with those with professions or an education but in our community all types and classes mix. It just is how it is here. Income and education are not what people weigh so much in terms of friendships here. I think my hubby's buddies are a chef, a property manager for a condo community, a ski bum, an artist, a musician, a special ed. teacher, a repairman, to name a few. Yet my hubby has "Dr." in front of his name. Nobody here cares! I have a kid who goes to an Ivy but it wasn't like she was competing with her fellow students. Sometimes I notice she, like me, even might be shy to admit we attended one. </p>
<p>Recently, at one of my D's college races, on a break, I noticed she put on her HS soccer team sweatshirt and I asked her, how come you are not wearing your Brown sweatshirt as I see so many kids with their college sweatshirt on in the base lodge. She said, I want to wear my public HS sweatshirt because I'm a proud public school student! (many on her team attended private schools) Does this kid care about class? Not in the way you might think.</p>
<p>Well, in my family of origin, being in the upper class could mean several things. 1) You had money and had had it for many generations, whether you had done anything to earn it SOMEBODY in your family had and you got to keep credit 2) You were extremely well-educated and accomplished and contributed to society - money be damned 3) Begrudgingly, you could be not well-educated per se but had shown proof of your worth by accomplishment with a presumed intellectual component, actor, dancer, artist, scientist, businessman.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, in my family, while a great policeman would be celebrated they would be presumed to lack the intellectual component required to be deemed upper class in the absence of a pedigree. Unless of course they wrote a book about being a policeman or policework or something of the sort.</p>
<p>However, even if you were in the upper class, you only DESERVED your position if 1) You did not show off 2) You participated in some kind of charitable endeavour. As EK says, in the end, class is how you treat others.</p>
<p>I do note in myself more desire to show off than either of my parents. It is kind of sad, but I will admit to it. I think the NYT article is correct. My mother was appalled by logos all her life. I really wanted some Chanel sunglasses so I bought them. Felt like I had gone to the dark side. But so be it. I believe it is true now that the old definitions of social class are less important, and that my desire for Chanel sunglasses is a symptom of my wanting to retain my social status even as the criteria changes - having grown up in one stratus.</p>
<p>However, I really didn't send my kid to an Ivy for social status for her. I don't care if she has social status. Mine never really did me any good in the happiness department, and caused a lot of self-doubt. I confess I privately enjoy any social status that my D's Ivy attendance brings to me though. I'm sorry, I know it's wrong but I confess. I don't, however, have a decal. Probably because I know how much I might enjoy it I'm too embarassed to.</p>
<p>I agree, interesting thread.</p>
<p>Alumother, I enjoyed reading your post. Your background is very different than mine. You know I enjoyed the following quotes...</p>
<p>"I confess I privately enjoy any social status that my D's Ivy attendance brings to me though. I'm sorry, I know it's wrong but I confess. I don't, however, have a decal. Probably because I know how much I might enjoy it I'm too embarassed to."</p>
<p>Susan, I also enjoyed reading about your life in Vermont.
I don't recall using the word "ALL" on this thread. Yes, I have questioned people's thinking on this thread, especially people who are thinking about this issue differently than I am.</p>
<p>By the way, I question my own thinking all the time.</p>
<p>If as a society, we eat too much fat, and you say you don't, I might question you about what you eat, especially if you're a teenty-tiny bit overweight. :)</p>
<p>I confess....I do eat too much fat and I am overweight. :D</p>
<p>To me abilities matter but one can not say that only one thing can take you to top. To say that abilities are the only thing, I would be denying reality of life. Connections mean (even a top college degree) allow you a foot in the door. But rest you have to work hard through abilities. My hard work earned me a scholarship to come to America.</p>
<p>A lot of my many college friends came to USA to pursue higher education by going to study MS and PhD routes. Let me ask a hypothetical question, if a person with PhD. works for me. He does his job superbly but only does what he is told. However, I have another employee who is only high school educated. He makes me more money because he uses his mental faculty and gives me ideas to expand my business. The Ph.D. guy is also brighter but he is so specialized that his work does not result in more profit. If I have to keep one whom I am going to keep, the guy who has metal faculty. Thus it may be the high school guy who has won over the Ph.D. person.</p>
<p>That is why not all PhD. make More than 5 million dollar per year. Education is very essential to get out of poverty and live on an income of $100,000. However to become wealthy one has to use the knowledge gained by education to practical use. I wish I learned these facts little earlier. </p>
<p>Thus in my home country there is lot of people who admire Bill Gates because his decision impacted my poor countryman to come out of poverty than say Ralph Nader who may be a good person but his policies will not make a bigger difference in peoples living conditions. By the way both people have their use but somehow I would admire Bill Gates more than anyone else.</p>
<p>Garland, I understand your post #112.</p>
<p>"Dstark; I'd be interesting in what ways you think it might matter to you."</p>
<p>This subject matters to me because I know it affects me and it affects society.
It affects our choices. </p>
<p>I haven't finished the NY Times link but it shows how people act and react to social cues.</p>
<p>Whether I want to be affected by my social class, I am. Someways are obvious.
Like where I live, the health care I have, the food I eat, who I associate with, my education. </p>
<p>Others are not so obvious, who I don't associate with, why I buy certain products, what I do choose to spend my money on, where I spend my money, how I spend my time (You won't see me at a Polo Match, or sipping tea wearing all-whites). </p>
<p>Then there is the way I look at the world that has been affected by my social upbringing, both consciously and unconsciously.</p>
<p>Now my kids come into play. I have no idea what they are going to want to do with their lives.</p>
<p>I don't want them labeled by the college. I don't care what I am labeled. I don't want them labeled.</p>
<p>I'm not fooling myself. In some parts of society, they will be labeled. So, do I pay for a label? I hate to say this but, the higher the social status of the people I know, the more they say yes. </p>
<p>Which is why I try to stay away from these types of people. :)</p>
<p>Susan, me too. All in the last year. :(</p>
<p>"Now my kids come into play. I have no idea what they are going to want to do with their lives.</p>
<p>I don't want them labeled by the college. I don't care what I am labeled. I don't want them labeled."</p>
<p>I think the labeling (branding) is inevitable in a capitalist society by virtue of our market choices (and picking a college is a market choice). Some wear their labels on the outside, some on the inside. Some "wear" them by saying they don't "have" a label. Some, like Alumother with her Chanel sunglasses but no Princeton decal, do both. (By the way, great post Alum.)</p>