<p>To say that it is acceptable to lie because you are afraid is merely to say that your moral code is strongly relativistic and that your personal gain is more important than being honest.<br>
Now, certainly there are some lies considered by most to be morally acceptable - the canonical example being lying about the Jews in the basement when the Nazis come knocking. But lying just to try to gain an edge in college admissions seems not acceptable to me. I am reminded of Sir Thomas More (in "A Man For All Seasons") when Richard has perjured himself for profit.
"Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales? "</p>
<p>I asked an admissions officer from Rice if she had ever heard of "Tufts syndrome". </p>
<p>She gave me a quizzical look. "Tufts, as in the school?"</p>
<p>I said "Yes, I've heard that some schools are unwilling to accept highly qualified applicants because they want to preserve their yield."</p>
<p>She fixed me with a perplexed stare, as if I had just said something really stupid, and said "that's crazy. We would never do something like that. If a student is qualified, then we'll accept them."</p>
<p>And I think that holds true for schools in general. And thanks also to Dan from Tufts for setting the record straight.</p>
<p>I'm just wondering, when you say we shouldn't lie about the list, do you consider being exclusive about our list (only naming some of the schools) lying. I'm just trying to gauge my own moral compass here.</p>
<p>How exactly is the question asked on the application form you are looking at? Do you have a web link to the form?</p>
<p>"Please list the other colleges and/or universities to which you have applied for admission."</p>
<p>I can't give a link, though, because this is from the common application supplement, so you have to log on.</p>
<p>The answer is that the your answer can, but does not always, matter. This can work in two ways:
Some colleges think that if you're going to get into their competitors, especially competitors to which that they routinely lose students, they shouldn't admit you at all. This is pretty rare, but not impossible. More often they see that you're applying to comparable schools and have to take their chances, or that you're applying to schools that won't take you anyhow, so they really don't care. A few might think that they are the only place that will admit you, or one of the only places you're applying and let that impact their decision about whether to offer more generous financial aid or scholarships. They might also use the first scenario to do the same thing with aid and scholarships. They even look at the order in which you list schools on the FAFSA and on your SAT to see which schools are on the top of your mind.
All part of their (our) effort to manipulate you for the best possible outcome for the colleges.</p>
<p>Certainly if the question is "List all schools to which you have applied", then listing only some schools would be lying. This is often called "lying by omission",as contrasted to 'lying by commission'. Since the intent is the same - to manipulate by presenting a false picture, it is still considered lying.</p>
<p>Claremont McKenna:
"Please horizontally list the colleges and universities to which you have applied or plan to apply:" 400 words</p>
<p>Thanks for the specific examples of wording. There is, of course, a difference between "List the other colleges" (an actual example) and "List ALL the other colleges" (which, so far, is just a made-up example). If I were advising an applicant to a college that asks for a list of other colleges, my advice would be </p>
<p>a) to answer truthfully, that is exhaustively as of that moment, </p>
<p>BUT </p>
<p>b) to make clear that the inadvertent order of listing may be just alphabetical or otherwise arbitrary, and may not reflect the student's order of preference. The NACAC rules (cited in my first post in this thread) make clear that the student is neither obligated nor expected by colleges that follow those rules to provide a rank-ordered list. The student may be still be making up his or her mind, and it's up to the college to make a strong case for the student to accept that college's offer of admission. If colleges are busy playing mind games with students, they are unworthy of applying to, in my opinion. A college with an early decision program has a legitimate interest in knowing whether or not the student is applying in a manner inconsistent with the ED contract, but all other colleges have to be content with PARTIAL information about where else students are applying.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of the advice. I really appreciated your comments, token, because I've respected your thoughtful responses to many other people's questions for a long time, and nemom, your comments make a lot of sense. </p>
<p>I don't want to be a lier, and I don't want to go to a school that would reject me because of other schools that I've applied to... but I also know that I don't want to be rejected for something that I could avoid. I will probably list all of the schools that I'm applying to (in ABC order), but I'm not applying early, so I still have a lot of time to change my mind. I don't know.</p>
<p>Best of luck and thanks, MBP! And, ignoring the moral issues, I'll note that I don't think there is much, if any, substantive information that suggests that listing all your schools would lead to a rejection. From what I know of it, schools will accept candidates that they suspect will go elsewhere, and just factor that into the number of candidates they accept.</p>
<p>when i applied, i only revealed the schools i applied to that were of equal or lesser selectivity than the school in question. i don't know if that was the right thing to do, but lots of schools don't want to think that they are an applicant's safety. so, for example, sewanee didn't see that i applied to uva, w&m, vandy, w&l, etc., but they did see that i applied to rhodes, dickinson, auburn, ole miss, etc.</p>
<p>I'll second tokenadult's POV: "If colleges are busy playing mind games with students, they are unworthy of applying to."</p>
<p>I've only spoken about this to one Adcom at one school, and the purpose of the question was presented as an opportunity to better understand who their competition is. They don't even touch the data until after the process - the implication being that the answer has no effect on admissions decision. I have no way of checking the veracity of this, or of knowing if this is consistent at other schools, but I believe the Adcom to which I spoke. And I can understand the desire to collect that information - I do analysis on the data Tufts collects, and overlap information is useful. At the same time, however, I believe that applications are stressful enough without asking uncomfortable questions in the application. </p>
<p>Seriously, try calling and just asking the school, "Can I leave this blank?" I suspect that's an option without repercussions, and it's a more ethical than partial listings and eliminates the need to 'game the question.'</p>
<p>"Please list the other colleges and/or universities to which you have applied for admission."</p>
<p>If this is the wording of the question, just apply to this school first. Problem solved.</p>
<p>If they ask for a list of the schools to which you plan to apply, I think it is entirely fair and truthful to say, "I plan to apply to a range of schools that fit my criteria, likely to include X and Y." This may not be a complete answer, but it is truthful, whatever your plans are.</p>
<p>Information I have via a friend who is an alum interviewer for Tufts confirms that this information is used by the school to understand their competition, and is mostly or entirely used in a statistics fashion.
I would agree with DanAdmiss - please don't game the question. Solutions such as Hunt's suggestion of applying 'first' are conforming to the letter but not the spirit and are unhelpful. Try not to think of the colleges as adversaries, but rather as partners in your dealings. It is both moral and effective.
Remember that schools need information to help them determine their yield. If applicants are taking actions that lead schools to believe their yield will be higher than it turns out to be - then the applicants suffer. Fewer get in, more have to hope to come off the wait list, and the whole situation gets worse.</p>
<p>There are several reasons colleges may want to ask this question, but they just shouldn't ask it. It puts unfair pressure on students. I think it is appropriate to politely and truthfully evade the question.</p>
<p>I still note for the record that a lot of colleges don't ask this question at all. I don't think any college my son is considering applying to asks it.</p>
<p>In addition to the common application Rice requires their own supplemental application. </p>
<h1>18. of the Rice supplement ask you to list the other colleges where you have applied or expect to apply.</h1>
<p>--- I believe this question (and others such as asking about family members occupations and college history, etc.) is irrelevant to the application process and should be ignored. </p>
<p>OTOH, perhaps students should just list the top 5 schools from US News + World Report and then Rice and other schools like them can continue to believe that they are attracting the same caliber of students as Stanford, Harvard, etc. :-)</p>
<p>What's the link to the Rice supplement online?</p>
<p>I think listing in Alphabetical Order is one way to go that we did in 05 as a way to scramble preferences. Not that an alum interviewer didn't immediately put my son on the spot and ask him exactly where College X was on his list...and to name his list in the exact order of preferences. This is really just so obnoxious since of course tons of kids apply to schools with very little chance of entry...and they should not be penalized for submitting an application to any college.<br>
personally, I don't believe that this data is never used for admissions...this data can be submitted in the Post-I Didn't Go to Your College But Would Be Happy to Take Your Survey letter that we got four versions of...where they ask if you would kindly for research purposes, indicate where you are going to college and where else you were admitted. And they leave a blank for you to put down any other relevant data...like merit money was not awarded, so had to attend state U or whatever.
After the fact, I have no problem with giving out that infor for research purposes.</p>