<p>but, but but the students at Harvard themselves say that,</p>
<p>"But right now, students can go through four years on campus with limited contact with professors. They often take large lecture classes, divided into sections headed by graduate student ''teaching fellows." Small classes are frequently taught by temporary instructors instead of regular, tenure-track professors. And in many cases, advisers are not professors, either, but graduate students, administrators, or full-time advisers"</p>
<p>"''I've definitely had great professors, but most of the time you have to chase them down and show initiative if you want to get to know them," said Kathy Lee, a junior majoring in psychology. ''I've had a lot of trouble getting to know enough faculty to get the recommendations I need for medical school."</p>
<p>On the five-point scale, Harvard students gave an average score of 2.92 on faculty availability, compared to an average 3.39 for the other COFHE schools. Harvard students gave a 3.16 for quality of instruction, compared to a 3.31 for the other schools, and a 2.54 for quality of advising in their major, compared to 2.86 for the other schools."</p>
<p>Most members of the campus community who have taken an interest in the declining enrollment of Jews at Princeton acknowledge that admission policies cannot be solely responsible for the decline in enrollment that, for various reasons, fewer Jews must be applying to Princeton than applied in the mid-1980s when Jewish enrollment peaked.</p>
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<p>Diamond [Rabbi James Diamond of the Princeton Center for Jewish Life] said many Jewish prospectives are deterred from applying by the social atmosphere at the 'Street' an atmosphere he said they consider elitist and uninviting to Jews. </p>
<p>In 1997 and 1998, Diamond led the Bronfman Youth Fellowships, a program for 26 of the highest-achieving Jewish high school seniors in America. "These are the best kids you're going to have," Diamond said.</p>
<p>"The 'Street' absolutely turned them off," he continued. "What I heard was, 'Princeton's a great place, but not for Jews.' " Only four of the students ended up applying to the University.</p>
<p>"I'm very concerned that the image of Princeton out there Jewishly is not that great," he said.</p>
<p>Cosar - Whlie I don't think that the COHFE study is particularly important ( I would imagine that the differences in student satisfaction are pretty marginal - it seems to me that the vast majority of both student bodies love their schools, and with good reason), it is hardly "old news" - its from 2005. </p>
<p>The article you cite, on the other hand, is from 1999 - the student body has changed almost twice over since then. While it is true that there are fewer Jews at Princeton than at Harvard and Yale, the numbers have grown in the past two years - as midatlmom said, it is up to 14 %. Obviously, our numbers are smaller than those of other schools. However, we certaintly have an active community that offers a full kosher dining plan at the CJL for those who want it, sustains three minyans on Shabbos, and is at least large enough that we have both Hillel and Chabad on campus - and both are thriving. It also seems that Janet Rapelye is actively going after Jews - she apparently visited at least a couple of the main New Jersey Yeshivas (Jewish schools) personally.</p>
<p>It is also interesting that the article presents the Street as inhospitable for Jews. About half of the CJL board is in Tower (one of the bicker clubs). Most of the CJL juniors and seniors belong to clubs; some who can't eat there for dietary reasons are social members. The rest - like most Princeton students - are perfectly happy avoiding them.</p>
<p>Please don't cite the lack of a strong Jewish Community at Princeton one of the negatives of the school. I can tell you that we don't appreciate it.</p>
<p>I absolutely do not believe that Princeton is inhospitable to Jews or lacks a Jewish community. At the same time, I absolutely do not believe that Harvard professors are inhospitable to Harvard undergrads. My point is that stereotypes will inevitably find support from some source, even if the source is inaccurate, outdated, or not intended for the use to which it is put.</p>
<p>The COFHE survey - always a favorite among Harvard-bashers - is a case in point. Many people here (including me) have pointed out a whole range of reasons why it does not support the assertions that Harvard-bashers use it for, but Harvard-bashers really don't care to engage in reasoned debate on the subject. As to the time frame - yes, the news stories are from 2005. They report on an internal Harvard memo that makes clear that Harvard administrators took seriously and were addressing issues that students raised in the survey - obviously a good thing. The survey itself, however, was administered in 2002 to seniors who began their Harvard experience in 1998 or earlier. I would also note that it was a voluntary response survey, which means that it was not intended to produce statistically valid conclusions. Harvard did, however, find it useful for the issues that it raised.</p>
<p>In any event, my other point was that Princeton supporters seem to be hyper-sensitive to negative Princeton stereotypes while many are quite happy to accept and embrace negative Harvard stereotypes. My view is that stereotypes of any kind are never a good basis for choosing a school.</p>
<p>My point exactly - too many Princeton defenders seem to believe that the way to defend Princeton is to bash Harvard. I wasn't the one who inserted Harvard into this thread. I joined it in progress on page 3. And reacted in part to the following absurd assertion:</p>
<p>
But having made my point, I will now exit this thread and let you go back to Harvard-bashing in peace. It only reflects poorly on your own school. ;)</p>
<p>Anyone who is marginally proud of their school would find a chance to defend it aganist other schools. This is true for everyone (unless you dislike your school which the majority of us don't). The basic topic of this thread is Princeton vs. Harvard (even though it's worded differently). People of Princeton are defending Princeton. People of Harvard came here to defend Harvard. </p>
<p>Cosar: -One word....Byerly.
-Another thing, you "joined" the Harvard bandwagon back on pg. 3. You are still defending Harvard just like the people of Princeton are defending Princeton.
Also, I seriously don't think that Princeton people only defend Princeton against Harvard. Many other debates (of the form Princeton vs. X University) have risen in this forum, and Princetonians have defended their school. Also, people of X university have also came to defend their school, or the OP posted the same question in the forum of X University (where, believe or not, defenders of X university came to defend their school! :O )
-Last thing, defending Princeton does not make us look bad. Quite the contrary, imo.</p>
<p>Hmm...I suppose, but you guys don't let Princetonians get away with "attacking" Harvard. You people of Harvard "attack" Princeton as well. So, I don't know why cosar said all that stuff. -_-</p>
<p>However, there would be nothing to defend if no one attacks. :)</p>
<p>besides, none of the Princeton defenders go trolling and change their screen names to give appearance that Princeton's faults are not just one person's opinion. It is shared by many</p>
<p>Where'd simba ever say that Princeton, Harvard, or any school ever conceived was flawless? I did a quick search on previous posts, but can't quite find that one.</p>
<p>What are they? I mean... as seen from the inside? The <em>Princeton</em> flaws, that is.</p>
<p>Gosh... from reading all the posts by loyal Tigers, Tigresses and their mommies and daddies over the years, I'd been led to believe there <em>weren't</em> any !!!</p>