What should count for course credit toward a university degree?

Parents Corner
1

<p>I started this new thread because I was intrigued by another post about auditing ballet and didn't want to hijack it. </p>

<p>Let me preface by saying that I believe taking non-academic courses is a fabulous idea. Or even making them a requirement to graduate. I just find it odd that they end up transcripts and somehow count as credits (not extra-credits?) toward one's academic university degree. </p>

<p>I see a few interesting differences from my vantage point of sitting between American and Canadian university worlds. American universities require quite a few less courses than Canadian universities on average (ie. our students take 5 courses a term). American universities tend to give students higher grades overall than Canadian universities. And American universities are more inclined to count non-academic type courses for credit in a way not possible at most Canadian unis (I can't speak for the whole country but those unis I'm familiar with). </p>

<p>Taking the comparison more broadly (as we are in the process of reading apps for graduate programs right now so I have a big international sample): Only on American transcripts do we see things like a grade for bowling 101. And the less well known the school, or the more regional it is, the more non academic stuff one is likely to see. More now than prior years too (unless I'm just noticing it more). </p>

<p>I find it curious. Why are they given credit? Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I suppose it motivates people to do things they might not otherwise do (but why is that necessary when these things seem like fun...do we next give credit for joining clubs or doing a fundraiser?). And when I see such courses on a resume, I think 'what then was missing?' and I wonder if it replaced what could have been a more academically challenging course. I am also left with the impression that the student is not academically serious and/or was looking to pad their resume with easy courses. </p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

2

<p>Don’t know about other schools, but at my daughters University (a large State U) there are leisure classes available (such as rock climbing) but they do not count toward her degree requirement. They might count for degrees that are related to leisure (sports management or something - don’t know as I have not looked into it) but they don’t count toward other degrees such as biology or accounting. She took rock climbing as a fun additional class on top of a full load one semester - I think it may appear on her transcript but with no grade and no credits.</p>

3

<p>I agree that the contrast between the two countries is interesting, starbright. Having had kids attend college in both countries, although neither of them chose to take this type of class, it surprised me that people were willing to pay the ridiculous U.S. tuition fees for ‘leisure’ classes. These types of classes are not offered at the Canadian universities with which I’m familiar. I just think of my Ds who had such difficulty narrowing down the list of courses in their majors that they wanted to fit into their four year undergrad, and I can’t imagine them wasting a credit for something like this.</p>

4

<p>My daughters tuition waiver covered hers. probably wouldn’t have done it otherwise.</p>

<p>The US system is so different from other countries in so many ways. The big thing about sports is one major difference. Academically, the general ed classes required at many schools is another. In many countries you start specializing in your area of interest right when you start college - all those general ad classes have already been covered in secondary school. I know back in the stone ages when I was in school you took a broad swathe of classes until you were 16 when you did your O levels, then at 17 -18 went onto a more specialized track (depending on your future career plans) for your A levels. There were no general ed retirements at the university level. (I don’t know if that has changed, it is a while ago). I actually find that to be a much bigger difference in the systems than the occasional leisure class.</p>

5

<p>S’s school used to require 2 credits of PE to graduate, but dropped the requirement several years ago. PE and dance classes are 1 credit each, pass/fail, and a maximum of 8 credits will count toward the degree. Why shouldn’t they count for credit? They’re not like clubs, where you can quit at any time. With PE/dance, if you miss a certain number of classes you fail, and that goes on your transcript.</p>

<p>I can’t see paying for PE as an overload, however. S was going to take 5 academic classes plus tennis, for a total of 16 credits. Full-time tuition is for 12-18 credits. He was able to talk his way into an English class he really wanted and didn’t want to drop any of his other academic classes, so that would have been 19 credits. Tennis had to go.</p>

6

<p>

</p>

<p>I agree with you and Alwaysamom on this. I think the cost thing is probably what really got me thinking about this. I love the idea that schools have a range of credits (beyond the required) for the same tuition. I love that schools offer so many cool classes. And that the non-academic ones are in addition to, not substituting for, a full regular course load. But I just don’t understand the point of putting them on the transcript. What is the motivation behind doing so?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I ask myself the opposite- why should they be? If sports class attendance counts, why not club attendance, or going to watch games, or fill-in-the-blank. What should count and what should not? Where should the line be drawn? </p>

<p>The line should not be whether one can quit or not. Sure you can quit clubs anytime…until you make them for credit! Then you can’t quit clubs either. Likewise, you can quit dance anytime, until it’s for credit. So is the idea if you want to force people to show up for so many sessions, this is a way to get them to do it (and assume otherwise they would not take advantage of these opportunities?). </p>

<p>I also just don’t see the value in giving credit for merely showing up to something. Then again I’m also not someone who gives credit for merely coming to class (I do not take attendance). Instead you can earn some part of your final grade based upon the quality of your contributions to class discussions. I recall reading a study reported in the Chronicle of Higher Ed in the past year that found that the majority of students believe they are entitled to a B if the just come to class. That also makes no sense to me.</p>

7

<p>My DD at Berkeley took a PE type class one term, I believe it was a 1 unit course in terms of minimum and maximum units allowed, but no grade, just P/NP.</p>

<p>My DD at a small LAC had a couple of PE courses required for graduation, I think it was a small school attempt to instill healthy habits, but once again, units, not grades.</p>

8

<p>Well…my daughter’s school had core courses and one set was in the arts. Her orchestra credit fulfilled that requirement. Therefore it HAD to be on her transcript. Some schools have a PE requirement…if that is the case, you will see courses like bowling, yoga and the like on the transcript…again because it fulfills a school requirement.</p>

<p>My DD played in the orchestra (and she plays an “underrepresented instrument”). Orchestra and instrument lessons added three credits to each of her terms. The university did NOT charge her an extra amount for these additional credits because they did NOT want to discourage students from being in their student ensembles. I thought that was mighty nice!!</p>

9

<p>My S had to take 2 PE classes at his Ivy. 1 credit each, pass/fail. He also normally took 5 courses a term (not counting PE, of course); the only places I know where 4 is the norm are course unit schools like the one my D went to rather than credit schools where many courses are 3 credits and the average per term needed is 15.</p>

<p>as far as General Ed, SCM, I’m impressed that by 18, you had the kind of education a solid general ed program gives. Again, at my S’s school, he did a Common Core which I believe was far beyond pretty much any secondary school.</p>

<p>As far as my D’s LAC, I think she got as much out of her non-major classes as she did her major ones (and t hey were some pretty intense courses), but then, neither she nor us thought of college as professional training.</p>

10

<p>They don’t just show up and play tennis. There’s also a written test covering scoring, technique, and history. They can fail if they screw up the test. Don’t get me wrong–I’m not saying it’s anywhere near equivalent to calculus or other academic classes! That’s why they only get one credit instead of three, even though the class meets 2-3 hours a week. But it’s also not equivalent to a pickup football game on the quad or club tennis.</p>

11

<p>The school that my son attends has a PE requirement. In fact, he was closed out of PE for this semester! He must take 2 PE classes (believe that they are 1 credit each, and would be taken in addition to a full load of classes). He also has core requirements. For example, he needed one class in the arts. He elected to take a photography class to fulfill the requirement (recommended by his advisor). He learned a lot, and he really enjoyed the class, but I don’t think it was necessary to take this class as part of his college education.</p>

<p>All of the above said, I wish that I could take the fluff out of college, and save 2 or 3 semesters worth of very high tuition payments!!! It is all very nice to have, but I honestly do not think that it is necessary to earn an undergraduate degree.</p>

12

<p>Yep…one credit for orchestra. Class met FOUR hours a week (two rehearsals a week, 2 hours each…two different nights from 7-9)…and that doesn’t count the practice time she put in to learn the music outside of the rehearsals…or the concerts.</p>

13

<p>I don’t know about other schools, but at daughter’s school, generally recognized as a “top cc school”, dance is offered as a major and a minor, and faculty have advanced degrees in dance as well as professional experience as dancers and choreographers. They teach courses covering dance history and practice as well as technique classes. Prospective students come in at all levels, and must audition for any but the most basic studio courses. </p>

<p>Dance classes at all levels fulfill distribution requirements, but beginning classes do not seem to count towards a major or a minor. Students take Ballet 1, for instance, if they have no ballet experience, but also if they have had experience but have not been able to audition into a higher class. The ballet classes all require reading, attendance at performances and written critiques of the performances, papers, and quizzes. (So do classes in jazz, modern dance, and hip-hop, for that matter.)They are not by any means an automatic A, even for accomplished and experienced dancers. Many students who have never before taken a rigorous dance class will test the waters by taking their first class pass/fail. As in other departments, though, a certain level of proficiency is expected if a student wishes to move on to the next class in the sequence. </p>

<p>Of course, students who want to dance without being graded can try out for various student-run dance groups or performances, or participate in some of the dance clubs. Quite a few seem to prefer this route. That way, they can avoid the academic and attendance requirements, as well as teacher critiques. </p>

<p>I do not think this is much different from the situation in other departments in which some classes are taught at a beginning level and would not be counted towards a major, but would fill distribution requirements. These might include, for example, beginning language classes, basic art classes, some math and science classes (“business calc” might need to be taken over if a student moves over to an engineering department, at least at some schools), and intro music and theater courses.</p>

<p>I do not have a problem with this, since a student cannot major (or minor) in one of these areas without achieving a relatively high degree of proficiency. And, if a dance class is being used to fulfill a distribution requirement, it would probably be instead of something like an art history class. For some students, the performance aspect of the dance class, with few students and an ongoing barrage of teacher critiques, might make the dance class far more challenging than a traditional lecture class, so I do not think I myself would ask what “more challenging class” the student had avoided by taking dance.</p>

14

<p>Yes, someone that I know majored in dance at “top university”. After graduation and then working for one year she was accepted to a “top law school” with an undergraduate degree in dance.</p>

<p>Thumper, my son’s photography class was a 3 credit class and he had homework, projects, and it met the same number of hours as any other 3 credit class.</p>

15

<p>"American universities require quite a few less courses than Canadian universities on average (ie. our students take 5 courses a term). "</p>

<p>Some American universities have five 3 credit courses per semester while others have four 4 credit courses per semester. Supposedly, more material is covered in a four credit course than in a three credit course. My brother went to Boston University (a 4x4 school) and I went to McGill (a 5x3 school). We both were in management and compared our syllabuses for intro courses. We essentially covered the same amount of material yet I earned 3 credits and he earned 4 credits. His class periods were 10 minutes longer than mine so each 4 credit course had more contact hours than my 3 credit course.</p>

16

<p>There’s a difference between majoring (or even minoring) in dance, photography, music, etc., in my opinion, and just taking a beginner’s class in one of those subjects for credit at a university. I think the reason it surprises me the most is, as has been mentioned, the ridiculous cost involved. These are areas of ‘study’ that could easily be pursued outside the university academic environment for a cost far less, in most circumstances, than what is charged by the university. The other concern, as starbright has cited, is the appearance, valid or not, that a more challenging course has not been pursued. I found a similar issue when we spent time living in the U.S. when some of our Ds were in h/s and credit was given for things like being in the band/orchestra, yearbook, etc. Those things are all considered extra-curricular and would never be granted credit here. It’s perhaps just a different way of thinking/what you’re used to/ culture in the different systems. Interesting, though.</p>

17

<p>Starbright, I’m guilty of getting credit for bowling 101. We had to take two credits of PE and that counted for one of them. The other one I took was on healthy living or something like that. They met twice a week. Bowling met at a bowling alley and you bowled two games and had to pay for them (at a discounted price). It had tests on how to keep score and rules and etiquette and things like that… which I actually thought was a great idea. I can’t tell you how annoying it is to be bowling and have someone run right up aside of you and throw you off. Everyone should have to take bowling in college, lol! </p>

<p>I took both of my one credit courses during a semester where I had a 4 credit science with a lab, that way it wound up being 6 credits for 3 classes and that extra science credit didn’t throw anything else off in regards to scheduling 6 courses (18 credits) the rest of the semesters. Also, I’m not up on how many credits people normally take, but you said up there people take five courses per term which is more then in here? I took six courses every semester from freshman to senior year, with the exception of my very last semester where I had two senior capstone type courses that I knew would require a lot of extra work. I only took five courses that semester. I did however fit in three minors with my major, so that may have something to do with it.</p>

<p>Regarding dance and photography and things like that… I don’t think people realize how much work goes into those type of classes. You get the same amount of credits as other classes however you spend twice as many hours in class and you have a ton of work to do outside of class. My photo one class met twice a week for three hours each time, plus I spent several hours shooting photos, developing film, developing and printing photos. I probably had 10 hours of homework a week for that one class. My photo two class met twice a week for three hours each time and I was in that lab at least 6-8 hours every Saturday, as well as several other evenings during the week. That one required the most work of them all. My digital photo class met the same amount but that I did a lot of work at home rather then in the lab since I could edit the photos and whatnot from my home computer. I had three art minors so I spent A LOT of time in our art building! Photography is an EXPENSIVE hobby and class! My developer solutions and paper and rolls of film cost me several hundred dollars every class I took. I still, to this day, would love to put a dark room in my house. With digital cameras, it’s really becoming a dying art form… it might take you two hours just to make one color print… whereas you can do the same thing on the computer in two minutes… but there’s just so much fun in figuring everything out!</p>

18

<p>From what I can tell at S1’s school 12-18 is a “full load” and tuition is same whether you take 12 or 18. If you take 15 each semester you would have enough credits to graduate (if you planned and managed your major and/or minor correctly). This means that every semester a student could take an enrichment class if they wanted and still not have to pay extra.</p>

19

<p>My D took drawing during her last semester, with several high level major courses. She said she put about 40 hours a week into the drawing class, while maintaining A’s in everything else. I don’t think it was a waste of my money at all. But again, people look at college for different things.</p>

20

<p>I have six units worth of Intercollegiate Women’s Basketball on my transcript. Hope nobody ever audits that :)</p>

<p>(Because, uh, I’m a guy.)</p>

<p>It was accepted as transfer credit at the state flagships I subsequently applied to.</p>