What should my DD be doing?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>My DD has been playing clarinet since 3rd grade.</p>

<p>She has run through the usual all-district all-state gauntlet and passed every year.</p>

<p>More important she has a profound love of music and takes advantage of every performance opportunity she gets. She plays in marching band, wind ensemble, full orchestra and pit orchestra at her large suburban high school.</p>

<p>This summer she is at Governor's Honors for six weeks. She is one of three clarinettists chosen from the entire state. She is a a rising junior. She is ecstatic about being surrounded by so many great musicians.</p>

<p>Academically, she is taking a challenging curriculum and plays soccer as well.</p>

<p>This fall she wants to audition for the youth symphony for out large metropolitan orchestra.</p>

<p>Given all her other commitments is this important for her, or is it something we should forego if her schedule gets too heavy?</p>

<p>Also how much does Governor's Honors buy her in the Music World? She wants to go to Argentina next summer to do service work. Should she be trying to go to a major summer program instead?</p>

<p>Her dream school is Northwestern, double major in communications/clarinet.</p>

2

<p>All the usual caveats apply -- more than one path, etc. I have no personal experience with Northwestern, and know nothing at all about the ability to double major with music there.</p>

<p>That said, here is my opinion. Worth what you paid for it:</p>

<p>Yes, youth orchestra is important. Especially because it will require her to give up something else. If she doesn't want to give up other things for music, that would raise red flags for me. Music is a great hobby. As a career, though, it is a jealous husband.</p>

<p>I feel the same way about the Argentina trip, actually. But my kids tend to look for things that allow them to combine interests. Any foreign service projects that involve music? </p>

<p>Your DD sounds like my S a bit - He was a great soccer player, took a full load of AP courses. Gave up soccer for youth orchestra in 9th grade. His older brother did the governor's honors summer, the service abroad trips (Peru), etc. But S2 did neither, in favor of music camps. But not to "position" himself - merely because he prefers music to anything else. (Although he occasionally stops to eat. ;) )</p>

<p>My DD is double majoring in violin performance and German. However, she goes to a "lesser" school (lesser for music, that is) and the music major is simply the path of least resistance for her at the moment.</p>

<p>(Again, just my opinion. I'm sure you'll get a variety of responses.)</p>

3

<p>Unfortunately, time to "fish or cut bait," musically speaking of course. If a conservatory is the thinking for the future, this would have been the summer for a major summer program, and that repeated again next year.</p>

<p>If it's a double major career with interest in both music and something else, then she's fine. NW music school not uber selective and based on the credentials above, things look good. There are also many fine schools like NW that will give her a good grounding too.</p>

<p>It's all a matter of how much can she squeeze into 24 hours...</p>

4

<p>I would strongly encourage the youth symphony and an intense summer music program next year. Now is the time to find out how important music is to her. I agree with binx that it is it is important to know if she is willing to give up something for her music. It is not what is on the resume that is going to get her into a conservatory level program, it is her audition. Music students don't need to worry about resume building as much as they have to worry about getting to be as strong as they can as musicians. A good youth orchestra helps her build her skills. An intense summer program helps her discover if she really wants to do music 24-7 or would rather participate in it as a less intense level.</p>

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<p>Agreed that it is the audition not the resume that will determine whether she gets into a really good music program. Governor's Honors is probably not really going to give her anything musically that she has not already had in the all-state programs. Perhaps next summer she could do her service work domestically and also fit in a summer program like Tanglewood, where she would be playing with some of the kids who will be competing for spots in programs like Northwestern's. The results of an audition for a top summer program can also be a reality check to see whether she is in the running at the national level.</p>

<p>Youth Orchestra is a very good idea, particularly if she is not getting regular opportunities to play real orchestral repertoire elsewhere. It will take up one complete evening per week plus the occasional weekend concert or rehearsal. She may or may not be able to continue with everything in Junior year, but I think something is going to have to give in Senior year. Once she starts preparing audition repertoire, preparing her applications, and visiting schools for sample lessons and auditions it is unlikely that there will be enough hours in the day to go to classes, get in her daily practice time, participate in several ensembles, do her homework and play a competitive sport. I think she will have to make some tough choices at that point.</p>

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<p>Binx, you have interesting children! What is S1 doing now, if I may ask? Does he regret the trip to Peru?</p>

<p>My DD has already cut soccer back to a minor hobby for music. Until last year she was on track to play major college soccer. Last year she cut back to a lower level club team, and doesn't play for her high school at all. She mostly does it because if she doesn't get at least one hour of hard exercize each day she becomes very difficult to live with! I would be reluctant to suggest to her that healthy daily exersize should not be part of her life.</p>

<p>More likely the thing to go would be pit orchestra. I can't imagine her giving up MB, or WE or Orch. </p>

<p>GHP, if you're not familiar with the program, is very intense music. She spends about 9 hours a day on music. Whether it is the same level as the big league summer programs, I don't know, but it is definitely a test of whether she wants a lot of music and the answer to that is most definitely yes!</p>

<p>As to devoting her life to music...</p>

<p>She (and I) are very aware that her chances of making a decent living out of music are about the same as her chances of playing in the women's world cup. That is, very close to 0.</p>

<p>She has a real aptitude for writing and I expect she will make a living in marketing, or law or ...something.</p>

<p>But she loves music and wants to continue making it a major part of her life, hence the double major.</p>

7

<p>I agree with the rest of the sage music parents. Definitely things have to give if your DD wants to audition for high level music programs, particularly at a school like Northwestern, where she will have to have both excellent stats and grades and an excellent audition.</p>

<p>Every kid we have ever known who played a sport or worked on the school paper, or did debate, or whatnot, had to let that go if he/she wanted to pursue high level music. I can't think of a single case where they could balance music and a big commitment to another activity.</p>

<p>That said, there are a lot of kids, like my son, who were so overinvolved in music activities (including pit band, pre-college programs, all kinds of school bands/ensembles) that one wonders how they couldn't do a sport instead of a couple of the music things. But, at least for intense music kids we know, it tends to be that the focus is entirely on the music, and the other activities goes. Other people's MMV.</p>

<p>Also, there are a lot of other, less competitive programs than Northwestern, if she wants to double major and continue to do other activities. I am certain that kids can get admitted to double major programs (even performance, depending on the school, but definitely BA programs) without the intense commitment required for conservatory or top university music school study.</p>

<p>The governor's school will help her really see if music at that level is for her. I really think the kids know and their path becomes extremely clear during junior year. There are many avenues for kids who want to keep music as a major part of their life, but not pursue performance for a career (as an aside, I am hoping that my son's odds for making a living in music are better than zero, considering that he is already earning $25-50 an hour for gigs, teaching, pit band work, etc.,and he is still only 17...)....;)</p>

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<p>Thanks Allmusic, I understand your points about kids needing to live music 24/7.</p>

<p>But if you read my posts you will find that my DD now uses soccer for fitness, not as a major activity. She plays on a club team which practices twice a week and plays on saturday mornings. She has worked out with her team that she will miss a number of practices and some games because of musical commitments. On a good week she will spend 5 hours on soccer.</p>

<p>I have always been of the opinion that soccer has had a very positive influence on her clarinet playing (she has been accused of having gills).</p>

<p>At any rate I would not want her to stop working on her fitness, and I would imagine that many musicians run, swim or whatever for their health.</p>

<p>Does your son do any fitness activities?</p>

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<p>Emmatoo,
My S1 is an economist for the government! Music was never his intention as anything other than a hobby. He has let piano go completely -- says he would pick it up again if he had a piano - but whenever we suggest an electronic piano as a gift or something, he is in much greater need of yet another guitar, something for his Wii, or something for his car. It's all about priorities! :) However, he plays his guitar a lot ... A LOT. He plays for the worship band at his church, an occasional gig, and just for fun. In college he took classes like music history also just for fun. He made no sacrifices to take his trip to Peru - went over spring break his senior year of HS. (He has travelled quite a bit since then, too.)</p>

<p>His GHP, by the way, was for Latin, not music. </p>

<p>S2 was nominated for music, but - at least here in Georgia - he felt the music program would not be strong enough (compared to his other options), plus they have to pick a minor unrelated to their major - and he wasn't willing to do that!</p>

<p>I have a funny story about the soccer, though. After quitting at the start of 9th grade (in MS he was captain of his travelling team and an excellent sweeper) he didn't play again, at all. Last summer he went to MAW (Music Academy of the West). Some of the musicians got together a pick-up soccer game. S2 was on the same team as a young man from Bulgaria, who was also a good player. In the first half of the game, S2 scored 2 goals, and the Bulgarian scored 1, while the other team scored nothing. They complained about the teams being lopsided, so S2 agreed to switch sides. During the second half, he scored one more goal. The final score was 3-1, my S2 scored 3 of the 4 goals ..... and ended up on the losing team. But the Bulgarian told him he played pretty good "for an American." That made up for it. He called me and gloated, "I've still got it!"</p>

<p>I was sad when he gave up soccer. I really enjoyed the games. I hear you about the exercise/energy. S2 runs sometimes, plays Ultimate Frisbee, plays ping-pong. But what we discovered was that when various music activities conflict, all the parties involved tend to be at least a bit understanding. When music and sports conflict, no one wants to give. Our youth orchestra rehearses on Saturdays - when the soccer games are. No way to do both.</p>

<p>My S2 is also a good writer. Toward the end of 8th grade, he had a soccer coach pushing for HS soccer, an English teacher pushing for him to publish more, and of course his music. He came to me and admitted that he was feeling pulled a bunch of different ways. I told him to "do what you love." Without missing a beat, he said, "Okay. Music." That spark is the difference between him and my other two kids. For them, music is something they're good at, something they enjoy, an "option." For S2 it is everything.</p>

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<p>Emmatoo, my son played Ultimate Frisbee, until the music commitments became too great (very quickly).</p>

<p>Now, he does solo exercise that he can do on his own time (mostly lifting weights and running outside or on a treadmill), sometimes late at night. And frankly, when he is really busy with musical commitments, like shows till 11 p.m. or later, he doesn't get exercise at all, except walking to and from school.</p>

<p>I understand completely the need to get daily exercise though. I need it myself, so good for your daughter for cultivating that habit early. I was in my 40's before I got into a daily exercise regimen, and wish I had started earlier!</p>

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<p>OK...my turn. My son gave up sports in 11th grade due to too many conflicts with his increasing number of music activities. Plus...musicians cannot afford to injure their hands. Everytime he went on that field he worried about getting hit in the mouth (not good for a brass or wind player) or injuring his hands. In fact, a very talented friend of his was not able to play in an honors ensemble because he got hit in the mouth with a soccer ball the day before the performance. </p>

<p>In addition to the risks of injury, there are also time commitments that just can't be balanced after a while. For example, DS was in chamber music ensembles and took private lessons on two instruments. That after school "sports" time was just needed for other things like practicing, and homework...oh...and sometimes even the music activities themselves. </p>

<p>Northwestern is a fabulous music program and has very competitive folks auditioning for spots in their studios. I agree that getting involved in a more global music activity will help your daughter figure out just what she wants to do. As an example...my son was always first chair in everything he did...then he went to a summer program where EVERYONE was the first chair in their middle school program (he was in 8th grade). It really helped him know just how much work he needed to do to prepare for a competitive music audition. That first summer he was not first chair for the first time in his life, and it was very humbling. But he grew a LOT from that experience.</p>

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<p>Emmatoo, you've gotten some excellent advice from some of the best this forum has to offer. The only thing I can add to this is that it really is up to your D to decide if she can backburner her music, continue to play avocationally, or potentially pursue music as a career.</p>

<p>Familiarize yourselves with the couseloads of a BM versus a BA in music. A BA might suit her better if she just wants to continue playing at a high level in college, while a BM will position her for Masters work in performance if she chooses that route. The GHP might give her a feel for what a performance major's immersion level would be, and if she has the desire and drive to pursue it, but I agree a high intensity summer program by this point would have given her a better feel for her skill level across a broader base of peers.</p>

<p>Northwestern is a good program. I'm not familiar with their policies regards dual degrees, but communications/clarinet performance should be more "do-able" than a science/performance combo where conflicts can arise around required labs/ensembles time slots. Performance degrees tend to be fairly high in terms of overall number of credit hours, and many dual degrees tend to require an extra semester or even a full additional year to complete. As Northwestern carries a hefty price tag, bear that in mind for the future.</p>

<p>As for my own son, he picked up the viola also in third grade, and never put it down. In late middle school he did play organized baseball and was heavily involved in Boy Scouts, but once he hit high school, he dropped these and it was music 24/7 twelve months a year. The only breaks were a couple of academic conferences or competitions, but these were at most two a year.</p>

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<p>I agree with the previous posters that a key question is whether your child is interested in total music immersion, or wants a more balanced degree that a BA might offer. DS finds that even many BM programs have a bit too much of that liberal arts edge for his taste as he is looking to invest all of his energy in music.</p>

<p>With respect to the concerns about making a living, I would suggest that this follows from working at something one loves. Further as the Peabody admissions site does a great job of discussing, being in music teaches a person a lot of very valuable life skills.</p>

<p>Finally, I think that as one starts to approach the college applications process it really does help to get a better fix on the mix of music and liberal arts education the student is looking for. It can help to narrow and focus the search, which given the complexities of getting into music schools is a very valuable thing. BA candidates do not normally need to audition, although they can provide a sample of their capabilities via CD. Applicants to serious BM programs may need to provide a screening CD and audition for the program. In addition, it helps to get to know the faculty, so this is a significant effort on the part of the student and the family. Participating in an auditioned, serious summer program should help the student get a feel for the way they want to go.</p>

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<p>Final point of reference. NW is VERY encouraging of double degrees, more so than any other music school I've encountered. They have 50% of their students involved in the double major program.</p>

<p>Now, as VioloaDad eluded to, you need to factor in that EXTRA YEAR of high-priced tuition into your equation. The NW double degree program is a 5 year one so you're talking very close to $250K for the college experience!!!</p>

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<p>Oberlin also has excellent music and academics and encourages the double degree. It has the same extra year and extra tuition. I don't know about NW, but if Oberlin offers a music merit scholarship, they extend it to 5 years if you do a double degree. This surprised me. They can offer very generous merit money too.</p>

<p>I have a slightly different take on the need to make an absolute decision about music by the end of hs. If your daughter is good enough to get into NW or Oberlin or U. Mich., these are all excellent music schools with excellent academic programs. It allows a student to straddle the fence for a year or two while deciding for sure whether music is their calling. I don't think all 18-year-olds are completely sure. They must, of course, love music and be devoted to practise, but they might decide while in college that they are better suited to a different field. It might be a question of preference or it might be that getting out there and seeing that where they stand among other musicians is not as tall as they had hoped and that they are better off being devoted amateurs. </p>

<p>This of course presumes that they have had superior training before arriving at music school so that they don't have to grind it out 7-8 hours a day just to keep up. Some kids need to practise all the time leaving little or no time for anything else (my son for example). It depends upon the preparation and the person. </p>

<p>Definitely encourage your daughter to go all out with music now, though, if she thinks she wants music school. My son applied to both music schools and colleges and found that his devotion to music throughout his hs years (his extracurriculars involved nothing but music) helped him a lot in the non-music schools because it showed that he was serious, driven and disciplined. He had success getting into both music schools and colleges. So I don't think she'd be making a mistake giving up her non-musical activities from a resume point of view. She will need the time to prepare for auditions - school will not make the time for her! For music school, the audition is everything. For non-music school, all the musical extracurriculars (orchestras, all-state, camps, competitions, etc) count for a great deal. In the meantime, she can be making her decision about whether this life will be for her.</p>

<p>Re: youth orchestra. I do think this is an important piece if you can make it fit. It is a lot of fun, she needs the experience and I believe the music schools want to see orchestral experience on the resume.</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your daughter!</p>

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<p>Good points, IZ. DD liked NW for just that reason. She is realistic about her chances in the music world and really wants preparation for something other than a music career. As to costs, fortunately my DH and I invested early and heavily in college accounts for our D's and they are funded for whatever they want to do.</p>

<p>Thanks Stringfollies. Very sane advice.</p>

<p>I think our kids are pushed to specialize very early, these days. And I'm not certain it works for everyone. Two years ago I would have bet anything that I would be trying now to learn about where she should be looking to play soccer. Soccer parents looked at me sideways when I would say we were spending the weekend at All-state band.</p>

<p>Most of the soccer girls did nothing but soccer, and many avoid honors and AP classes so they have more time for soccer. I can think of only one soccer girl (out of hundreds I know) who play an instrument.</p>

<p>While some kids may naturally gravitate toward one overwhelming passion, many more are pressured into early specialization out of fear that they will fall behind. I wish it weren't so, but I am sure I can't change it.</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

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<p>Thumper - I had to smile about your sons concerns over injuries. My son played soccer through middle school but gave it up for music in high school. He still enjoyed team sports if he didn't have to play with the jocks. The summer after sophmore year he attended Encore, a very intense summer program for string players (the program is currently in hiatus). I remember visiting him part way through the summer and asking him if he was doing anything besides music. He told me that they played basketball a couple of hours a night! String players playing basketball is really asking for disaster in my opinion. But he says they all had a great time playing with each other because none of them were jocks. They also tended to be less aggressive. Anyway, no hand injuries for any of them all summer. He also told me that Joshua Bell played recreational basketball all through high school. If you grow up in Indiana, you play basketball. He played intramural soccer and ultimate at Eastman. </p>

<p>I definitely agree that musicians benefit from being physically active.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
While some kids may naturally gravitate toward one overwhelming passion, many more are pressured into early specialization out of fear that they will fall behind. I wish it weren't so, but I am sure I can't change it.

[/quote]

I turn 50 this year, and so far have resisted any pressure to specialize. :) Jack of all trades.... </p>

<p>I agree with many of your sentiments. As I said previously, my D started violin at age 6 - a good 3 years behind many! We weren't comfortable pushing her (she doesn't respond well to being pushed), and she is where she is now. I remember learning once that (prior to the fall of communism) Russian children were selected to be things like gymnasts very early on. I wondered at the time how anyone could tell. I think it still happens in China - incredible pressure to succeed once you've been "picked".</p>

<p>We see it more in this country with sports programs, and in some families, with academics. Trying to get the edge.</p>

<p>Those kids, along with the kids who voluntarily choose to commit to something early on (which I have no problem with), will almost always end up leading the pack. There are always exceptions. All we can do is the best we can. Many personality and individual differences at play. (No pun intended.)</p>

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<p>"Those kids, along with the kids who voluntarily choose to commit to something early on (which I have no problem with), will almost always end up leading the pack."</p>

<p>I have read that the number of hours spent playing is the factor with highest correlation for ultimate professional success.</p>

<p>But the two hours a week spent playing violin at age three is an advantage easily surpassed by a motivated young adult. </p>

<p>On the other hand, I have also seen a lot of information about middle school being a time when brain connections are being pruned, and those not used are lost. The activities middle schoolers engage in give them a permanent edge over those who don't play as much.</p>

<p>I have always thought that the scary russian who terrified my DD into long practice sessions during middle school gave her a lifetime advantage, even if we ultimately left him because he was just too intense.</p>

<p>Speaking of soccer and music, my DD says she always has a song stuck in her head during soccer games. She carefully picks what she listens to in the car on the way. I have always thought it would be funny to sing "It's a small world" to her just before she steps on the field.</p>

<p>Life is an adventure!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I have always thought that the scary russian who terrified my DD into long practice sessions during middle school gave her a lifetime advantage...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There is much to be said for scary Russians and musical success. My son's longstanding chamber coach took no quarter, and asked for none. She scared the begeesus outta me, and I've been known to clear rooms, frighten children, large and small animals, and marauding hordes.</p>

<p>May the gods continue to smile on her.</p>