Thanks @tk21769 that is an amazing information. I really really appreciate the link.
@ultapradesh and @tk21769
The yolosite link provided in post 59 is VERY VERY out of date. Some of those scholarships no longer exist…and others have been significantly reduced.
Here is the link to the 2017 version.
But this student won’t be starting college until 2019, right? That being the case…check check check each college website for accuracy when the time comes. Policies do change…and the school website is THE place to find more accurate information.
Yes @thumper1 she is still a 11th grader. I will do so. Thanks
Note: the schools I listed in #59 are only suggested examples (meant to help the OP find strategic bearings). They aren’t necessarily the colleges with the very lowest net prices for each category, let alone the most attractive schools overall for the OP’s needs.
~$16K wouldn’t be the lower limit for a tip-top student, either. It may be close to the lower limit someone with this income/asset level can expect from n-b aid alone. You could go even lower, even to ~$0, with a full ride merit scholarship. Your best shot at a full ride would be from schools much less selective than Stanford, MIT, or Haverford. However, you might have a decent shot at a big scholarship such as the Banneker-Key from the University of Maryland - College Park (which seems to be a good school for CS).
OP sounds reasonably informed. It’s up to her/him to now run NPCs.
In general, at top colleges, female stem is not the push it was, even 5 years ago. More and more highly qualified gals are applying to the non-bio stem fields. It’s a factor in gender balance, but not a special tip.
What OP needs to do is pick a few top colleges and try to learn what they look for in applicants. I’m a broken record on this, but even parents who know their kids well and have encouraged many activities can miss how the colleges look for matches, what needs to show beyond a resume. Because in crafting her app, she’ll need to show qualities, not just dry accomplishments. What you learn from top schools then can help interpret for others.
Breadth in hs ECs is good, not just math-sci. Girl Scouts is good, but we don’t know what comm work. Just random “vol event of the month” doesn’t show what her own commitments can. Similarly, just tutoring in the hs is the hs box, not some expansion.
Btw, she does not need competition awards. What she needs, after stats, rigor, and the right balance of activities, is to appeal to them as an individual who will contribute in and out of class. Again, that’s more than a resume. It’s about the awareness, energies (and choices,) good will, openness, stretch, and more, that comes through in the app, all the writing, and LoRs, etc.
@tk21769 I sent you a PM. Thanks
Just to clarify, neither MIT nor Caltech is just engineering. My son never took an engineering class. He majored in CS and NS.
I would recommend that she apply to MIT’s Women’s Technology Program WTP-EECS for this summer.
http://wtp.mit.edu/application.html
The application deadline is January 15th and I believe they offer financial aid.
This is a very competitive and prestigious program and graduates of this program do very well in competitive college admissions.
thanks @ClassicRockerdad she is applying for the program.
The most important thing to know about admissions to top colleges in the US is that admission is not based entirely on academic qualifications. At some colleges, it is impossible to be impressive enough academically to be ensured of admission. It is hard enough for multi-generation US families to believe this, if they have not been clued in. If you come from a culture where admission to top universities is essentially determined by academic qualifications, you will probably find it even harder to accept that academic accomplishments (both in school and in STEM ECs) only count “somewhat” for admissions, and do not completely determine it.
As long-time CC readers will know, I do not support the status quo as is. In my view, it would be preferable if academic strength counted more at the “top” schools. But there are many reasons why it does not. So I am just writing (below) about the way things really seem to be, in admissions.
Your daughter is well within the range of academic accomplishments needed for the top schools. What she will also need to show with her application (her own essays, non-STEM ECs, and letters of recommendation) are the so-called “soft skills.” Depending on the top university, different combinations of the soft skills are especially valued, but lookingforward’s short list in #64 is a good starting point. To that, I would add leadership, insight, and compassion. Charisma is really quite valuable for admissions, in my experience. You might look up the “laundry list” of characteristics that are sought in Rhodes scholars (“sympathy for and protection of the weak,” being among them).
The standard classifications of “safety, match, and reach” schools do not apply in your daughter’s league. Her qualifications match the top schools. But those are often called “reach for everyone” for good reason, since the statistical match is only the first step toward admissions. The “safety” concept still applies, but the school needs to accept a reasonably high proportion of applicants and be affordable, as well as being a school that your daughter actually likes, in order to be regarded as a true safety.
Your daughter should consider a really good public research university or two as a “safety school.” You might look at various rankings of universities in research (National Academies or Times of London) or more specifically in mathematics (National Academies) and pick a couple of the top public universities. They will not necessarily be located in New York. Many of these will offer scholarships which are available to out of state students.
You may also want to look at the proportion of women among the math majors. It can be rather lonely to be the only woman in an advanced math class, and there are many universities where that can happen. In my opinion, Duke (not a public university, and a school that has to be classified as a “reach for everyone”) has a program that is excellent for women students (and men). There are no doubt others.
@quantmech thanks, I will look into Duke so far it is beyond what we can afford. But she may take some loans if need be.
I did this but the UUIC, Berkeley, Georgia Tech, U Texas @ Austin, Wisconsin, U of Michigan, are all out of reach as it is too expansive.
[quote]
Many of these will offer scholarships which are available to out of state students.
[quote]
Where Can I find this information. Do I post on each school page located on cc?
You have a list of a lot of OOS public flagship universities. And yes…the best way to find out IF merit aid is available to OOS students is to look on the individual college websites.
In terms of need based aid…remove any CA schools as they provide NO institutional need based aid for OOS students, and the OOS costs are high at the UCs.
Some of the Cal States might be affordable. You might want to look at CalPoly San Luis Obispo…a very fine school…and not exhorbitantly priced for OOS students.
Duke has offered excellent scholarships that are interview based–at least in the fairly recent past. I would be surprised if they have stopped. So the "list"price is not necessarily the price you will need to pay. If you can afford the application fees, and if your daughter has the time to write the college-directed essays, she could put in applications at various colleges, and see how things work out. I think some public universities other than the ones in California will offer need-based scholarships to out of state students.
Often, when a student has an EA acceptance (or REA or SCEA , but not ED) the student will keep the other applications in, to see what the actual cost of different colleges works out to be. In my opinion, it is ethical to do this, especially if the cost of the EA school is more than looks affordable to you. Your daughter might need to take out a loan in any case. This is also okay, provided that the amount is realistically repayable without hardship.
If your daughter were inclined toward medicine or the law, she would want to limit indebtedness at the undergrad level, because loans are virtually always needed for law or medical school. If she is going for a Ph.D. in math or computer science, on the other hand, she should expect that her full tuition will be paid and she will receive a stipend that covers basic living expenses. Also, in computer science, as an undergraduate she can probably obtain internships that will permit some savings over the cost of living and renting in another locale.
No medicine and no law.
“The most important thing to know about admissions to top colleges in the US is that admission is not based entirely on academic qualifications. At some colleges, it is impossible to be impressive enough academically to be ensured of admission. It is hard enough for multi-generation US families to believe this, if they have not been clued in. If you come from a culture where admission to top universities is essentially determined by academic qualifications, you will probably find it even harder to accept that academic accomplishments (both in school and in STEM ECs) only count “somewhat” for admissions, and do not completely determine it.”
I believe that this statement is only partially true.
1-There are dozens of fine U’s in the US where admissions “is essentially determined by academic qualifications”. Any decent guidance counselor can show a kid the Naviance statistics from the last few years of their HS and a kid with decent skills interpreting a graph can therefore determine where his or her stats alone is highly, highly likely to get an admissions.
2- There are also a few dozen fine U’s in the US where academic qualifications trump virtually every other “soft skill”-- but NOT just measured by standardized test scores. This is important for folks who come from outside of the US to understand- the adcom’s at Caltech don’t make a chart which lists kids by grades and scores and then admits all the 4.0’s and SAT 800 scorers first before looking at everyone else. But that does not mean that academic qualifications are not the single most important factor in admissions at many of these schools. You can be a circus acrobat from Montana (or another under-represented state) with dozens of awards for your poetry or operatic singing voice but if your academic qualifications are not solidly within range for that particular college/program- you won’t be admitted.
3- Quant uses “soft skills” incorrectly in my opinion. Soft skills are typically defined as elements which are under a person’s control, can be improved or acquired, and are not primarily cognitively based. I don’t believe Adcom’s over-value soft skills, nor are they determinative in most cases. Being a first generation college student is not a soft skill but it can matter tremendously at certain colleges. Having been raised in poverty and having faced numerous challenges is not a soft skill, but it can be the finger on the scale for a kid who has 'the rest of the package" vs. a kid from an upper middle class suburb.
I could make you a list of colleges (Vanderbilt for one) where having tippy top scores and grades is almost always enough to get admitted. They aren’t going to ask where the EC’s and leadership are for a 1600 scorer who is first or second in a rigorous HS. They aren’t. Ditto most public flagships. SUNY Stonybrook is very strong in math and physics, and a top stats kid doesn’t need to be captain of anything or an Eagle Scout or have “soft skills” or charisma or empathy or anything like that to get admitted. It is a fine university which “punches above its weight” in academia (not necessarily the guy at your local dry cleaners) via its reputation in math and physics.
So Quant- your post needs some clarification.
True, but the issue is whether they’ll offer enough to a family in this income/asset bracket to make them affordable (or competitive with good private alternatives).
Likely graduates of this program do very well in college admissions because of other qualities they have that helped them get into this program in the first place. I doubt it makes much difference in the results of students who attend the program (they were on that trajectory already). That said, it certainly can be a benefit to a kid’s growth and understanding of STEM options to attend that type of program.
Most offer little or no need-based financial aid to out-of-state students (UVA, UNC-CH seem to be the two exceptions; Michigan may do so for some students). Many do not even have good need-based financial aid for their in-state students (PA, IL). However, some have low list prices (e.g. South Dakota publics), out-of-state merit scholarships, or regional tuition discount programs.
Nah, blossom re #75, I used “soft skills” exactly as I meant to use it. I was advising ultrapradesh about what his daughter needed to show, specifically. Perhaps I am reading him wrong, but his/her daughter, described as “Indian” in the first post, is also an American citizen. I am guessing that at least one of the parents is in science, math, or engineering, which brought them to the US. I don’t think either of the circumstances listed by blossom in #75 (first generation college, having been raised in poverty) is likely to apply to the daughter.
I have become a broken record about MIT; but in my opinion, MIT does over-value the “soft skills,” as they affect the potential contribution to the college “community.” I believe that others (including lookingforward) would agree that these qualities are important, but that they would disagree that MIT over-values them. I suspect they believe that MIT is making the right call in using these qualities to select among those who cross the academic bar. That’s a pretty high weight.
I was told once by someone who worked in Harvard admissions that Harvard was not looking for the smartest applicants, but rather for those who would be the most successful. If still true, this would cause Harvard to weight somewhat different non-academic qualities than MIT; but again, the overall academic record is not the determinative factor for someone to be admitted. Weakness in the academic record could get someone excluded, but that is irrelevant in the context of the OP’s daughter’s circumstances.
I don’t think ultrapradesh’s daughter is wondering about one of the “dozens of fine schools” where admission is essentially determined by academic qualifications. My guess is that the focus is on top ten (or so) schools. ultrapradesh can correct this if it is a misinterpretation. Caltech is unusual among them, in that intellectual strength and accomplishment in science/engineering/math are the main factors in admissions, by a long way (usually–at least they have been). I agree that GPA + SAT is not sufficient to show the kind of intellectual strength Caltech is looking for. Incidentally, Caltech has a fine student community, without selecting for community-building characteristics.
Vanderbilt and Stony Brook are great colleges, and if they wind up being the most affordable schools to use as “safeties” for ultrapradesh’s daughter, they would be good choices. I would still recommend using the National Research Council/National Academies ratings of universities in math and computer science, and then looking for affordable schools near the top as back-ups to the main choices.