<p>Welcome to the “weed out” classes. He is just going to have to buckle down and focus harder. </p>
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<p>He may be able to recreate that structure with an on-campus job, extracurricular activities, or even just tutoring/group study sessions.</p>
<p>I totally get what you mean by that ‘external structure’ and while it sometimes feels counterintuitive (if you have free time wouldn’t you study more?) for some of us actually having that structure where having a small amount of free time helps us stay focused but having too much and we end up wasting all of it on things that we don’t enjoy and aren’t necessary.</p>
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<p>That may be true, but in my experience you have to bring a lot to the table though. The grading style of the professor can make some difference but I’d be shocked if those tough engineering ‘weed-out’ courses would ever go well for students without strong academic skills and discipline to push through them. The difference between an A and a D is probably not solely or mostly due to the prof ‘piling on the work’ for these classes, and depending on the program it may not always even be possible to choose between professors or make too many modifications to the schedule (some engineering programs can be rigid and it’s hard to make too many changes without endangering your ability to graduate on time). </p>
<p>I would definitely focus more on the intrinsic factors for this student, working on ways to improve his performance and preparation for these classes. If he can get that nailed down then he should be OK regardless of the professor’s grading style.</p>
<p>Academic fit is very important. Some kids can get lost in huge lectures with professors who are more into research and publishing. These students end up dealing mostly with TAs. Accents by some engineering professors can be hard to understand for some students and they end up teaching themselves from a textbook. Some kids are better suited for a smaller school where there is more interaction with their professors. My DS would have been lost at a huge school and excelled at a school where his classes averaged 19 students with his gew big lecture having 35 kids. My DD on the other hand is thriving in large lectures that require a number of TAs. She would have been bored by a small school. Some say a large school can get smaller but a small school cannot get bigger. I beg to differ as my son Had the opportunity to study on several continents and really grew into his own at a smaller school.
Good luck to you and your son. He sounds like a great kid who will figure it out. </p>
<p>Nothing more to add but support. :x </p>
<p>I ran into two issues first semester freshman year which it took me too long to identify. I really needed glasses and could not see the board well in Calc and Chemistry large lecture halls. In a small HS classroom it didn’t manifest as an issue but when I really needed to see well and follow to understand I couldn’t. I took it as “this just doesn’t make sense” at the time. I ended up retaking the classes and did very well when I could actually see. The other issue which I only identified when my son was diagnosed was likely ADHD. When things got hard enough that I really needed to be able to focus and learn new material and grind out problem sets I felt like I just couldn’t make my brain focus. When I retook calc I had a small classroom and sat in the front row to focus. </p>
<p>My larger point is that there are things like these and others that will only really become a problem in that big, self directed lecture hall environment. I would try to vet out anything that might be making it harder for him.</p>
<p>I have worked with Honors students at 3 large state universities with strong engineering programs. THIS is not an unusual story. Like many people have said before me, there are many reasons this happens - sometimes because the student isn’t prepared to manage their time/social lives, sometimes because of things like depression, and sometimes just because they’re in hard courses and have to learn how to do college. Most schools with engineering have lots of support services - tutoring, group study sessions, supplemental instruction, etc. - but many kids don’t take advantage of them because they had good grades in high school so these kinds of help are seen as being for someone else. Nationwide, about half of kids who start in engineering change to something else - sometimes because they realize they’re not interested in engineering and sometimes because they realize they can’t hack engineering.</p>
<p>To the OP - you’ve gotten good advice here. Your son should not drop out. He should have a heart-to-heart with his academic advisor AND the folks at his university’s academic success center (or whatever they call it). They will help him devise a plan of action which will no doubt include taking advantage of all the support services they offer.</p>
<p>Although your son’s “I’ll get a 3.9 next semester” is magical thinking (and believe me, I see lots of that) he can raise his GPA quite a bit with help and hard work. Be supportive and he’ll get through this (and so will you!!)</p>
<p>Yes, I don’t like to call those freshman classes “weed-out” classes but my son did say that almost 50% of the kids at his uni fail the Chem class and Calc II. These are big, big classes with hundreds of kids for the lectures and then smaller “lab” groups plus TAs who are not native speakers so it’s tough. Many of those kids will give up rather than pushing through it and many will re-take the class either right away or the summer after freshman year. My son survived, but it takes alot of hard work and self perseverance when his friends in other majors have more time on their hands. He has friends in four other engineering schools and that helps also as they can “compare notes” and realize it’s the same way in all engineering schools and they are all taking the same basic classes. Absolutely kids should not skip classes and absolutely they should go to the study groups or free tutoring sessions. Agree that often these kids did pretty well in high school and don’t understand that’s it’s not a “failure” to ask for help but a sometimes essential support system. A benefit my son had was that he’s very dyslexic so his entire K-12 career he had to go to special tutoring and had an IEP so he has never looked at “help” as a failure - more as essential to success. And I’ve listened to him encourage engineering friends to go find help when home for holidays and “gabbing.” </p>
<p>Most of the big engineering schools have really, really good support systems in place for the freshman engineering kids on up. My son had to “find” his study group through trial and error since there were quite a few options, but once he settled in with a group he’s stuck with them now into the middle of his sophomore year. Interestingly he found them at the Engineering Diversity Center, a place that many (non-traditional diversity kids like my blonde hair blue eyed son) might not think about and the center is open to all. Honestly, alot of your son’s success or failure going forward will be how vested he is in actually staying in engineering. If he doesn’t want to get through the first two years then clearly he should look for ancillary majors. Anecdotally, my son did extremely well in Physics - and he never took Physics in high school because he couldn’t fit it in his schedule so which classes (math, chem, physics) that will trip up kids can vary greatly. Math is my son’s Achilles tendon. He has to work 5x harder in math classes than anything else with a couple down and more to “get through” to finish the sequence by junior year.</p>
<p>Another mistake my son made freshman year was not getting to the gym. He was a two sport letter-man in high school and never missed a day working out or playing one of his sports. After he decided not to play one of his sports as a walk-on he just stopped working out thinking he was “losing” an hour he could be studying. I nagged and nagged him to get to the gym and finally somewhere toward the end of freshman year he went back to the gym and realized it help greatly as both stress relief and brain break. He makes sure now as a sophomore to carve out an hour every day and get to the gym even if it’s 10 at night. So learning how to balance body, mind and soul is still important, even for a kid that seemingly is doing everything right.</p>
<p>Good luck and best wishes to your son.</p>
<p>I agree with the gym. My D who was a volleyball player and an all around athlete was always complaining about being lethargic. After gentle prompting, she started playing intramural sports and going to the gym. She feels much better physically and mentally. It helped a lot first semester.</p>
<p>My daughter is a tutor at her school and she has two kinds of students come in for help - those at the top of the class and those at the bottom of the class. Which underscores that tutoring is really for everyone.</p>
<p>You’ve gotten lots of good suggestions but I’ll throw out one more that I don’t think I saw yet. Encourage him to do the problems in the textbook - even if they are not required by the professor. Many professors have said that they see a correlation between the grades of students who do the problems and those who don’t. Some professors will offer extra credit for doing the textbook problems as a way to motivate students to do them but not too many. But it really is valuable to do the extra work even if you don’t get graded on it. It’s just another way to learn the material. </p>
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<p>I don’t like to call classes “weed-out” classes unless the teacher intentionally fails X% of students, no matter what student performance is seen in the class. Typically, the lower level engineering classes, rather than being weed-out classes, are hard classes that demand a lot of studying, for most students. If the student either is not able to do the work, or is not willing to put in the amount of effort required, then the student will fail, but not because the teacher wanted to fail them. In math and physics classes, there’s no substitute for working the problems. And for most students, that takes time.</p>
<p>He may just need to learn how to study. Lots of good students coast through high school because they can, then get to college and find this “strategy” doesn’t work. My first semester grade report was horrendous, I recall with shame more than three decades later, but when I told my parents, they had the grace to laugh and recount their own stories. Don’t make a big deal out of this. If he needs to change majors, that’s okay. Help him to see this as an obstacle, not a big high wall.</p>
<p>My son is not an engineering major, but he attends a very large, public school with a well-known engineering program, and has many friends at this school who are engineering majors…and I am friends with many of their parents…and my sister went to a large, public engineering school (and is now a working engineer to this day). Here’s my two cents, from the perspective of my son’s school (which may or may not be widely applicable to all such schools):</p>
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<li><p>Some large FYE programs are designed to weed out freshmen, and some will explicitly say so. The idea is that engineering is a popular major, but many kids have no idea what it really entails and what the profession ultimately demands. Hence, they hit you hard in the beginning and if you are not passionate about the material, you will (and maybe should) be chased away.</p></li>
<li><p>A 2+ gpa as a first semester freshman is FINE. It’s not great, but it’s not terrible. He did not flunk any classes. He may need to retake that D. THIS IS NOT UNCOMMON AT SUCH SCHOOLS although it can ultimately limit what concentration he can choose after FYE. However, again, this is purposeful as some concentrations demand higher ability than others.</p></li>
<li><p>Some very large publics are famous for “grade deflation” - I know my son’s school is. Ultimately, the hope is that employers and/or grad schools will know the school’s reputation and will consider a C+ at such schools to be more of a B- or even a B at other schools. Perhaps your son’s school is such a school.</p></li>
<li><p>He should not leave school at this point. First, the grades aren’t so terrible that he should be questioning his choice of major - yet. Therefore, if he leaves, he would likely need to start over later on (FYE programs are not typically piecemeal) and this is a waste of time, and seems unnecessary. Furthermore, he would be missing out on that program to boost the struggling students; participating in this program could help him discover what he is doing wrong, or what he can do to improve his performance. He won’t get that at the CC.</p></li>
<li><p>I would be shocked if he could not take that D class over, and have the grade replaced for GPA purposes. Probably the D would stay on his transcript, but the GPA would NOT reflect it. At my son’s school, D’s are COMMON on engineering transcripts (although, yes, the classes typically need to be repeated both for grade replacement and for prerequisite fulfillment).</p></li>
<li><p>I would NOT advise a job or push ECs at this juncture. FYEs who are struggling barely have time to brush their teeth and sleep is a precious commodity. I WOULD recommend some time working out at the gym as a stress reliever and health promoter. </p></li>
<li><p>Finally, your son’s not knowing how he was doing is not necessarily because he was in denial. At my son’s school - and not just in the engineering program - kids often have absolutely NO IDEA what their grades are looking like until the final grades are posted. This is because the curves are determined in sometimes crazy ways that defy a mere mortal’s ability to calculate them. Case in point - just this past semester, my son had a 42% going in a math class. He ended up with an A- due to the bizarre way the final was curved vs the other tests vs how many kids scored “X” on the tests vs how many scored “X” on the final as compared to kids in your own section and kids in the overall course…and the formula goes on and on. Believe me, he was utterly unworried because by this point we have all learned that having a 42% in a class means nothing…and having a 92% means nothing (two semesters ago, that 92 ended up being a C in a science class due to strange curves/calculations/twists at the end). In fact, as an athlete at the school, he was subject to NCAA grade checks— and frequently the professors/TA’s told him they were unable to calculate his grade midpoint because they had no way of knowing where he stood.</p></li>
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<p>Phew! My advice is to keep a close eye on the situation next semester, and take his temperature closely on whether he wants to pursue this major after all. BUT if he wants to keep going, he definitely should!</p>
<p>OP- At my son’s college they have a list of all the required classes online for each major and it tells you which classes you have to get at least a C in. I would think your son’s school would have them listed too. Is this the ONLY chem class he has to take? if it is and Chem isn’t his thing it might be better to move on if he doesn’t need a C. However if he has to take another chem class then it would be better to retake the class in order to succeed in the next chem class.</p>
<p>Also not an engineering major but my daughter had a dismal first semester at college as well. I don’t remember her overall GPA but she did have a D in chemistry (not her major). She recovered. Gradually. Every semester the cumulative GPA rose a bit until she finally graduated with honors. She didn’t get the gold cords or anything but she did get a letter from the dean. The first semester is hard, the second is easier. He’ll get in his groove and figure it out. Hire a tutor, get him extra help, help him through it, but don’t have him withdraw. That would be horrible.</p>
<p>My daughter just finished her first semester as an engineering student. She has excellent grades but worried about all but one (the 1 credit freshman experience which involved gathering points for attending things) until they were posted. She really didn’t know what she would get because 30-40% of the grades were the finals. She called me several times ‘knowing’ she’d failed a quiz or a test and I had to talk her off the ledge. She was not at the top of her high school class, and actually only finished pre-calc level math, but tested into Calc 1 where more than half the students had had Calc AB or even Calc BC. She is also very young, having just turned 18 two days after her first semester ended.</p>
<p>What helped her:</p>
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<li><p>She never missed a class. Never. This is a habit learned in high school because I never let my kids miss school, even for dentist appointments. I think she missed fewer than 10 days from k-12.</p></li>
<li><p>She is an athlete so is up at 5, works out 6-8, eats, goes to class, goes to practice, eats, goes to study tables. She has an entire table in the library she has claimed for herself. She sets up, and others stay away. Next semester she will not have to go to study tables because she ‘made grades’ but I bet she still will go, claim her table, study for 3 hours. She thrives on a having a schedule. She’s also in bed before 10 every night, usually before 9:30. She needs her sleep and she needs to eat well. She’s cut out a lot of junk food.</p></li>
<li><p>She goes to every study session, every TA office hour, asks questions. She said she felt stupid always asking for a better explanation but I told her to keep asking. The class she didn’t do this in, English, she only got a B. I kept telling her to go to that teacher but she just wouldn’t. We’re happy with the B, but I know she wishes it were an A</p></li>
<li><p>Some of her friends missed classes because of traveling for their sports. She taught them what they had missed, and in doing so reinforced the lesson for herself or realized she didn’t know the lesson as well as she thought she did. She really thought that helped.</p></li>
<li><p>She is not overconfident, in fact she lacks confidence so really feels the need to do the extra credit, extra problems, take the extra study session.</p></li>
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<p>My nephew is also a freshman engineer (at a major university whereas my daughter goes to a smaller school). He studies, but he is also partying a LOT. He did well in chemistry, but not so hot in calc. He is trying to work out more and has plans in the spring to work as a referee (getting exercise and money at the same time). He also contacts the teachers and goes to the study sessions, but he needs to buckle down a little more and stop partying.</p>
<p>I also recommend taking a course where OP’s son might get an A to boost the gpa and confidence a little, a dance class or an art class or theater class. It also might bring some joy back to the college experience. My daughter’s worst class was English and while a second course is required and recommended for second semester, she’s going to put it off. Next semester is her first ‘in season’ semester and I don’t want her to be overwhelmed. She might even take that English class at a community college in the summer. I think Calc II, physics and civ eng with labs will be plenty, don’t you? She thinks they are fun.</p>
<p>I think your son will benefit from the structured study sessions. A lot. You also might look at his planned schedule to see if there are big blocks of classes and times to study. My kids both have classes in the morning and then can do activities, studying, working in the afternoons. I think the big time waster is to have a class at 9, then another at 11, and one at 3. Too much wasted time between classes.</p>
<p>The situation sounds very similar to my daughter’s. I am wondering if it is the same OOS flagship that my daughter attends. She had to take a particular Calc and Chem class and she needs to maintain a 3.0 by sophomore year in order to stay in the particular engineering program she wants. She always got A’s in HS. She said she was completely floored by the intensity of those two “weeder” classes. On her first Chem test she got in the 70;s and we decided to pay out of pocket for an off site tutoring company. It was money well spent! Happy to say she wound up with a 3.2 ( she is still a little upset. with that.) Although she did admit to me that she now gets how much more studying she needs to do. He will need to redo Chemistry this summer or next semester in order to stay in engineering, if we are talking about the same school.</p>
<p>@Powercropper…my daughter is also taking dance classes. Easy A. She is considering minoring because she calls it her GPA booster. </p>
This is all good perspective – thank you all for sharing your thoughts. We spent some time looking at his grades and talking this afternoon. He’s saying alot of good things, but he needs to be disciplined enough to follow through. He got an A in Chem Lab, a B- in Intro to Engr, and the rest were C’s or C+, with the exception of the D+ in Chem. Two of those were surprises – he thought he had B’s going into the final, so apparently he didn’t do so well on the finals in those classes. He found out that he does not have to retake the Chem; he can if he wants, but they do not do grade replacement – the new grade just gets averaged in with the old one, so I’m not sure that really is worth doing. We asked him what he would do differently now in hindsight, and he had some interesting things to say:
- Keep his room neater, so that when he studies there, he can work efficiently;
- Study at the library more, away from distractions. He did this some, mostly toward the end of the semester, and found he did better;
- Don’t consider study groups as study time … study before the study group and use the study group as extra practice time and/or to clarify things he’s struggling with. Study groups are good, but not enough studying by themselves;
- Spend time studying (vs. just working on homework) between tests, not just right before tests;
- Use his weekend time more productively. Apparently Friday afternoon until Sunday afternoon he was “off”; he knows now, he shouldn’t do that. Work a bit each day.
- Spend less time on extracurriculars (part of what was happening in #5).
We probed a bit about various things like attendance, office hours, school/life/sleep balance, etc… He did say he missed a couple of calc classes a month because he overslept (8 AM Calc); he said he always felt like he was playing catch up vs. being on top of things, so he was routinely up until past midnight … but addressing #5 will probably help tremendously with that. He also didn’t go to office hours because he always understood the homework, etc… But, did he go to office hours to go over the first test when he didn’t do so well? Um, no. And thus it snowballs… He said that frankly he didn’t take not doing well on the first round of tests as the wake up call it should have been because he thought he was just “adjusting” and it would get easier … naturally. Um, no … actively changing what you’re doing is the adjusting…
He does thrive on structure, but he has to create it for himself now, in the face of thousands of easy distractions and excuses to “do it later.” He’s talking about setting up a study schedule for himself and spending less time in the dorm where it is easy to get derailed from what he needs to do. Yes, we talked about all of this sort of thing before he left in August … yes, I’m biting my tongue and not saying, “I TOLD YOU SO!”
You are getting some good advice. I will add two more items.
- Consider taking one fewer classes until he gets his footing.
- Be sure he knows you support him.
I agree with the need to assess for depression but I also encourage you to keep being patient. It sounds like he has a solid plan. The first semester is overwhelming for lots of students - for all the reasons your son identified and more. The required program for those on probation usually emphasis exactly the kinds of skills he is talking about. Give it another semester. If it doesn’t turn around, then he can take some time away and re-evaluate.
One of my kids who did very well in college said one of her “best practices” was to take her study materials with her to dinner, and keep right on going to the library after dinner so she didn’t get sucked into stuff in the dorm and never get out the door to the library at all (or go late). She also dated a young man who was a bit more studious that she was, that was an excellent move on her part and helped her put in a little more study time than she might have on her own. 
(Still together 6 years later, and both graduated Phi Beta Kappa!).