What to look for in a college

Parents Forum
1

<p>She's internally driven, but the messages she's getting from her private elite high school (peers) is that only the intellectuals matter. She will never win that game, and shouldn't</p>

<p>this ^^ quote is from another thread- but I attended a meeting last night at Ds very urban public high school, and if I didn't have CC, I would have been totally intimidated by that message that I received.</p>

<p>The meeting was for parents/students in 11thgd on preparing for senior year- college app process.</p>

<p>Yes her school has many high performing students- so many that 44 students had straight As and were vals, so many that a student with a B+ average ( since classes are unweighted), is barely hanging on to the top 50th%.</p>

<p>Apparently from the counselors presentation, the students most in need of guidance are students with lots of money- looking at the USCs, the Stanfords, the Harvards.</p>

<p>Students only need to consider three things-</p>

<p>Where do you want to attend school.
In Maine on the coast? Do you want to be where you can go skiing on weekends?Or maybe surf?</p>

<p>What kind of school do you want to attend- a big research university with lots of resources? Or a smaller LAC with more personalized attention.</p>

<p>( I was also amused to hear- that at Harvard/Yale you get the best of both worlds- the resources of a Harvard/Yale, but the personalized attention and class size of a LAC- so perhaps my opinion that intro classes are large many places was incorrect)</p>

<p>And the last thing you want to think about is -
what do you want to study. Do you want to major in music and marine science? or Math with creative writing?</p>

<p>( I was happy to hear that it didn't matter if the school was urban or rural, if it had a mix of students from all over or commuters or if private or out of state)</p>

<p>As a parent- I about could not stand it- that money wasn't mentioned at all. ( He did mention that he wasn't comfortable discussing finances with students as that was private- but he could have mentioned that looking at whether a school is need based or out of state with few merit awards is important)</p>

<p>That there wasn't any talk of sitting down to determine what you could afford and comparing that with what * schools* thought you could afford.
Nothing about looking to see if a school met 100% of need, if they gapped, if it was out of state and very $$$$$. </p>

<p>If I didn't know better, after that meeting I would have thought that when my high performing child was accepted to college, they would be offered lots of aid- that if their grades and test scores matched the attending students that they would probably be accepted & their grades and scores were * above* attending students, then it was practically guaranteed acceptance. :D</p>

<p>I may have missed something- but is it a newsflash to those outside of CC ( or even on it) that schools look at things besides numbers, that a small school you never heard of in Minn may be a great fit for you even if you don't necessarily love snow, that attending Cornell College in Iowa, not Cornell University , doesn't mean that you are a hopeless failure, and that attempting to find a school with reasonable costs so you don't need to transfer out junior year- isn't an indication that you are a negative nellie?</p>

<p>After all you can always take the SAT over (because</a> the ACT is only accepted by a few midwestern schools- and why would you want to go there)
I kept looking around the room, so see if any parent was put off by the approach that it was a given that these students were highly sought after by Harvard/Stanford, and that students with lower aspirations or accomplishments weren't worth mentioning but I didn't see any.</p>

<p>Still I am really bothered by emphasizing that students should be retaking the SAT & lls if they don't like how they do, and no emphasis at all on schools that don't use the test or even accept the scores.</p>

<p>I want to respond to the counselor- from the viewpoint of a parent who may not have realized that there was something inbetween attending Dartmouth and attending a school with no entrance requirements besides a diploma, like CC, but I also want to acknowledge that I realize he probably worked very hard on the presentation and it seemed to serve the needs of the parents who attended.</p>

<p>Id love to hold my own workshop for parents who didn't go to college, who are worried about being able to afford it for their own kids & who maybe even think their kids should take a gap year ( oh you should have heard the reaction * that* received)- but im sure the teachers union would probably frown on that ;)</p>

<p>I am guessing there are many on CC who have had similar experiences.
So did you count your blessings that you are more enlightened?
If you tried to share more updated information with parents/counseling staff what approach did you use?</p>

<p>Should I just learn to keep my need to express my opinion to CC?
:D</p>

2

<p><a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003639256_madrona28m.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003639256_madrona28m.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I thought it was pretty ironic to have that experience last night, then to read in the paper this morning about conflicts at an elementary school just a few blocks away from Ds high school.</p>

<p>"White" parents ( who aren't always Caucasian but are perceived as such because they want to improve the status quo- according to AA friends who live in the neighborhood) feel that they are being pushed out of the school, that wants to focus on basics and improving test scores.</p>

<p>I totally understand the emphasis on helping kids who might fall between the cracks at other schools, but I also have the perspective that adding music and after school programs, isn't * elitist*, but can benefit all kids.</p>

<p>Ah well- I don't want to sidetrack my own thread ;)</p>

3

<p>Your description more or less describes my younger sister, who is a freshman at the most elite of DC's private all-girls schools (we don't pay tuition and are far from wealthy). She has a GPA in the B+ range, is on a varsity sports team (diving), and is active in a few clubs (French, community service, and ceramics) but not an officer in any... basically, she's a good student and a wonderful girl, but no one would consider her a superstar. And sometimes I worry about that, because so little of the information about colleges seems directed at students like her.</p>

<p>So thank you for posting this thread. I look forward to reading the responses. :)</p>

4

<p>It goes the other way as well. That is, I saw at a counseling session in the same community where kids who could qualify for admission, with likely aid & possible merit $$, at schools beyond CC's and regional universities, where never told of the possibilities. Most never heard of an LAC and where never told about them. College alone was the goal for these students. It appears there exists inflated expectations with one group, and deflated expectations for another.</p>

5

<p>Wow ek!</p>

<p>I've heard parents talk like that and kids, especially on CC, but fortunately our GCs know better!</p>

6

<p>Our GCs do financial aid issues on a separate night from regular college night, but it does seem odd not to mention it at all. Since you didn't want to interrupt the presentation why not put what you posted here in writing. Perhaps suggest a second night of working this point of view in. They might want to do a night on scholarships, merit awards, and how to fill out the FAFSA anyway.</p>

7

<p>I don't really know the counselor well- although D is a junior, and he is her assigned counselor, she has had a different counselor every year, and he is new to the school.</p>

<p>As I mentioned earlier in the year on CC, while I had carefully developed a positive relationship with her previous two counselors, ( both women and fairly laid back and friendly), which was very necessary, particulary given her "special needs", I was having a much more difficult time with this guy, who tends to be pretty brusque and brisk.</p>

<p>He does know about LACs, he mentioned attending a small school in Idaho & he is a big booster for the UW honors program. </p>

<p>I realize that at a big comprehensive high school, a counselor is expected to be all things to all people, & the high school has a very good graduation rate & many kids go to college- but of course- I really don't know how many graduate from college or how many transfer-.</p>

<p>My daughter is also participating in CollegeAccessNow, which is an afterschool program for students from lowincome/first generation/minority background who attended an earlier presentation by the counselor yesterday .
I am really curious if they are getting the same spiel.
( D didn't attend- she went to part of the meeting, but when it was time for the counselor to come in- she came home saying she has heard it all before!- plus she says they also came into her AP class & she is still recovering from one of the nastiest colds she has had for a long time)</p>

<p>Now heaven knows, I wouldn't advocate for a student * not to * apply or attend Princeton if they really want to. For a certain student, I might even suggest it, although I really don't know that much about it.</p>

<p>But my viewpoint as a parent who didn't attend college, is that students from that background may need more support to graduate, not just enter a college. At least it should be kept in mind, when evaluating schools- particulary if you want to limit your expenses for a four year degree, to four years!
;)</p>

8

<p>"I may have missed something- but is it a newsflash to those outside of CC ( or even on it) that schools look at things besides numbers ... etc."</p>

<p>Based on my experience, especially in the last week, the answer is yes. Thanks for posting this, because every day this week I continue to be more amazed at how little some people know about the college application process.</p>

<p>The difference is that the stories I am hearing are from seniors as the acceptances/rejections/financial aid is coming in. Shock that there was no financial aid. Surprise that kids who have minimal ECs or mediocre GPAs got denied. </p>

<p>"If you tried to share more updated information with parents/counseling staff what approach did you use?"</p>

<p>It's too late for me, but I am very curious about this. I decided to say nothing. I figured if someone came to me for advice I'd give it. Most people who know me know that I tend to do extensive research and thoroughly investigate things, and know that I've been a college admissions fanatic for years, even before my own kid was born. But no one ever asked my advice, and I felt very uncomfortable sharing it unsolicited. I've given some advice to my daughter's friends who are juniors -- and just learned yesterday that none of them are following it. </p>

<p>Many times this year I've felt like I'm watching a train wreck happening in slow motion and there's nothing I can do to stop it. I hoped a miracle would happen and that wreck would be diverted. Some kids got lucky. Many didn't.</p>

9

<p>Perhaps suggest a second night of working this point of view in. They might want to do a night on scholarships, merit awards, and how to fill out the FAFSA anyway.</p>

<p>This school is uber organized.
They do, do a scholarship aid presentation, by an outside agency, but that is in late fall, after when the counselor suggests that they have their schools selected.
It is to the counselors credit, that he has been trying to get information to students earlier. The school is having all students ( 9th/10th as well as 11th) take the PSAT next year for example, & he did try and suggest that junior & soph parents attend the aid presentation earlier this year.</p>

<p>They also apparently have a night in spring where they are going to help with filling out the FAFSA, but he did emphasize checking each schools website for their own due dates.</p>

<p>I just have the perspective that financial stuff is always in the back of my mind, I don't think that any school is worth going into unmanageable debt for , & I don't think saying " oh honey, don't worry about the money, we will figure that out after you are accepted"is a good strategy for most people.</p>

<p>It is also ironic that before we came to Garfield, we had low expectations of public school counselors.
For example in the spring before their freshman year, counselors from the high schools come around and meet with all the 8th graders and help them plan their courses for fall. In preparation for that, the high school counselors have dropped off the appropriate materials at the middle schools for the students to look at , take home and fill out in advance.</p>

<p>However, at Ds school, the counselor never even gave the students the information, so when the high school counselors showed up to meet with students the materials were all still sitting in a corner of his office ( which by the way was * huge* compared to the high school counselors office)</p>

<p>But over the past couple years, the amount of communication and follow through at her current school by most staff/teachers, has risen to the point where I expect everyone to be an expert in everything!</p>

<p>So even though her counselor obviously spent a lot of time preparing materials and even though one of the 4 counselors left a couple months ago, and the district hasn't replaced him yet so this head counselor is having to take on * his* duties as well, I still expect him to be an oracle.</p>

<p>Well not maybe an oracle, but I have tried to be an thorn to remind the school that there are kids besides the ones who take 4 APs starting in 10 th grade, and the ones who got bumped back a grade because they weren't on track to graduate on time.</p>

<p>As my H could tell you, I can be a pretty good thorn :D</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
But my viewpoint as a parent who didn't attend college, is that students from that background may need more support to graduate, not just enter a college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I tend to agree with you, but the weird thing is that I'm glad my parents didn't.</p>

<p>I was the first person in my family to go to college. The college was Cornell University, which is not exactly known for handholding. Nobody ever suggested that I wouldn't be able to handle it. I didn't take advantage of the university's opportunities as thoroughly as some of my more sophisticated classmates did, but I did pass and I did graduate. On time. With no serious academic difficulties along the way.</p>

<p>Sometimes it works out OK. </p>

<p>
[quote]
there are kids besides the ones who take 4 APs starting in 10 th grade, and the ones who got bumped back a grade because they weren't on track to graduate on time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think the assumption is that these kids in the middle will simply go to schools in the state system -- the flagship university if they can get in, and a less selective state school if they can't. But of course, there are other options available for these kids, and they should be made aware of them. And their families need to learn about financial aspects of college, too.</p>

<p>I wish it were possible to identify the kids who will fall apart if thrown into a cutthroat college environment without support and those who can manage. In retrospect, if someone had tried to persuade me to, say, go to a CC for two years and then to a state college, they would have been doing me a disservice.</p>

11

<p>*Many times this year I've felt like I'm watching a train wreck happening in slow motion and there's nothing I can do to stop it. I hoped a miracle would happen and that wreck would be diverted. Some kids got lucky. Many didn't.
*</p>

<p>This is what I am afraid of-
Not with my own D- she is taking a year off anyway.</p>

<p>But many of her friends- are going to be recruited by top schools- HYP I expect. They are really excellent students & haven't come close to peaking.
.
But some are interested in taking a year off, especially when they hear that I am all for D doing so, and that her sister did successfully.
That scares their parents to death.</p>

<p>Their parents also, some of them, have incomes that won't qualify them for a whole lot of aid, but recently extensively remodeled their homes or even bought a vacation home, and so have big monthly bills and aren't planning on spending a lot for college- telling their kids that scholarships will cover it.</p>

<p>D has passed on some info to them, and I try and do the same, and I have been donating several books to the career center library, like CTCL, and on gap years, but I am still apprehensive, because a student who might do well at Harvard, but not be able to afford it,( or be accepted) might do great at Smith, plus have merit aid instead of huge loans.</p>

<p>But I know I worry too much, the kids for the most part don't seem to be as stressed and even obsessed as the kids and parents on CC and many of the parents do have older kids or friends with older kids, so perhaps they are more familiar than I think. I hope.</p>

<p>I hear what you are saying Marian, and that is why I am holding back.( for me) ;)
I didn't even want my D to attend this high school for instance, because I knew she would be part of the middle, rather than the top, and that she would fight to stay in the middle.</p>

<p>But while it is a struggle, she has had, wonderful opportunities, and taken advantage of more than I expected & I am glad that I listened to her and took her wishes seriously when looking at high schools.</p>

<p>She now wishes I had pushed her a little more to take advantage of some of the opportunities, that as a junior beginning later than her friends, she can only participate in at a certain level, but believe me, if I had * pushed* any more, she would have * pushed back*!</p>

<p>But I also have the perspective of an older daughter recently graduated from college. Not on time- she had to take a year off to retake a class- because neither of us were paying attention to grades, and this was at a tiny LAC</p>

<p>So I worry about students attending schools where they can't get their classes on time, or can't get a room on campus or feel isolated.
Their parents may be pretty clueless about grades or majors or what attending a school three thousand miles away will actually be like.</p>

<p>I don't think you can identify what students will fall apart- but for instance my older D did choose for herself to stay in our region, which I think was a wise choice & I haven't known any one who actually fell apart before graduation ( although a cousin seems to be falling apart after).
I also encouraged my D to take a year off after high school, and am happy that her sister is planning on that as well.</p>

<p>Students who found themselves in schools that weren't working out the way they hoped just transferred--- I bet some of us didn't graduate at the school we started out at, and some of my friends even the ones with advanced degrees say it took 5 years or longer for them to even get their BA
( They blame it on the 60's)
:o</p>

<p>I have to share though, that when parents are talking about their own college experience- and they are waiting for me to chime in- & I admit that I didn't go to college after high school and my husband didn't either- I sometimes get the impression that I have cooties ;)</p>

<p>It takes a lot of effort not to say-
But my D went to the same school that Gates sends * his* to!
And she went to Reed!
Which in case you haven't heard of it is a fancy school for brainy kids!
even if it isn't in the top tier on US News-!
Some of us don't care about such things!
no really!
</p>

<p>but if they do ask what my older daughter is doing, I just smile and say she went to a school in Portland- I wouldn't want to be intimidating :) :)</p>

12

<p>Spent time composing this while above post was submitted. Here's a contrasting situation. </p>

<p>Sigh. Life in this imperfect world. Here where the ACT rules and kids who probably should take the PSAT don't, much less many who take the SAT (well, at least enough in some schools to get statistical data)... At least the school system lists the entrance courses required and recommended for state schools, UW (Madison- this is Wis) and elite schools in its literature. College rep visits are from all those nameless places in the upper Midwest, rarely do students think of either coast... A few will apply to and even get into those schools every so often, but not because they were pushed, there aren't enough elite students for discussing them or pushing each other to perform at their best.... I wonder how the academic teams would fare outside the region, yet at least they exist and the kids work at them. We had good AP courses, a good guidance counselor who really did her job and the guidance office gives out plenty of scholarship information every month, but they don't know the ropes for the elite schools. Son could have thrived at the most competitive HS in the nation, but his folks were stuck working in this blue collar world, at least the state has good K-college schools and it could have been a whole lot worse.</p>

13

<p>I was just talking with a parent of a HS junior from Boulder, CO, and she said their HS GCs have no training in or clue about FA and seem to think it's not part of their job to be informed about this. I should think it's at least part of their job to point parents/students in the right direction to get help with FA.</p>

14

<p>EK, it is too bad that your guidance office is providing its students' parents with such mediocre and incomplete advice. Like Marion, I was the first from our family to attend college starting many yrs ago in 1965. I know some parents may be more college savvy now, but I suspect that many families are like we were, badly misinformed about admissions, finaid and the vast differences between colleges, both public and private.</p>

<p>Unlike Marion, we did not even consider private colleges because of the sticker price and I grew up in Cornell's backyard which was about 40 miles away(though I did run cross country and played the occasional golf round on its golf course!!). Informing families about college finances certainly is a part of the guidance offices job, particularly for families similar to mine growing up. And good advice does not need to reach into personal family fincaces. I merely needs to give them accurate info regarding the broad range of college options available regardless of personal financial issues.</p>

15

<p>Try a meeting at an urban high school in a poverty ridden school district. Community college is hailed as a vast acheivement! No one at the school is able to help prepare the the zealous kid who wants to compete on a national level with the best of the best. The only area in which the school has been of great support is that of financial aid and scholarships/grants. Since the majority of families are below a certain level, with FA, no one is going on to a four year school.</p>

16

<p>bethievt, I agree, b/c what is the point of applying to schools with a 40-50,000 pricetag, and then not being able to attend any of them. Since the costs are staggering, it should very well be a part of the counseling, but not necessarily through the school gc. Our hs has a night where financial aid and planning (just a tad late in junior year) is discussed with a "specialist". I found it to be 90% worthless, but did pick up a few tips. Things that were discussed were: what is a fafsa, profile, merit vs. financial aid etc. Suggestions were to keep grandparents happy with the hope that they will help with college bills! They actually suggested that you mow their lawns and help with grandparent home repairs in exchange for the chance at some monetary help. I don't think that this is really helpful information on how to pick colleges to apply to, or helpful information on how to pay for a child's education.</p>

17

<p>I would put the word out that you are going to hold a Information/Worry session, maybe at a local town hall or someplace, and invite all of the parents. I bet you were not the only one who was put off by that snobbish counselor. I would have been, just like you.</p>

<p>I have already spent hundreds of hours looking at schools online and in the books, and some in person already, for my junior son, but most parents don't have that kind of obsession (plus, he is my first, with 2 more to come, so I am learning a lot now!) so I think lots of aid dollars and merit dollars from 2nd tier colleges go unclaimed - because these kids often don't have the knowledge to go looking for them.</p>

<p>Have an Info night, and if the school does not like it, too bad. What are they going to do to you???</p>

18

<p>Possibly a better use of the financial aid info night, with respect to grandparents, would be to have them attend. Even then, though, their attendance at that "hour" tends to be too late for the financial planning calendar.</p>

<p>What I'm getting at is that often grandparents, depending on their level of financial education, choose poor vehicles for college savings, which really don't help that much and actually <em>increase</em> the student's financial aid penalty. (Such as putting the vehicle in the student's name, not the adults')</p>

<p>...Very different from really rich grandparents who can pay down a significant portion of full 4 yrs at a private, esp if it's an only grandchild. But that's pretty rare. I can see grandparents being realistically a boost for public tuition, but not for private, unless they know what they're doing & this is begun early enough. It further makes it difficult if g.p.'s put the funds into hands of someone removed from the immediate family, & who either does not have the student's best interests in mind, or is just clueless about such things. (The effort to "control" release of the funds can backfire.)</p>

<p>This is just our experience.</p>

19

<p>EK4--we just had my in-laws here to see my D's thesis play at Reed. They're east coasters born and bred (my MIL went to Princeton--but in her 40s!--and my FIL went to Cornell). You would have thought Portland OREGON (they live in Maine) was the back end of beyond; they expressed surprise at what a wonderful bookstore Powell's is and wondered how the city could support such a huge bookstore. The highest praise they could muster for Reed was that "it looks like an east coast college."</p>

<p>Provincialism is EVERYwhere.</p>

20

<p>wow
thats exciting about her play- is she making copies on DVD?
It doesnt seem like she should be graduating already- but I guess she took just 4 years ;)
I imagine the west coast does seem sort of sparse compared to some parts of the east coast- but we do read alot :)</p>

<p>* my inlaws werent very impressed when they heard where she was going to college- until their neighbor went on and on about how great a school it was - their daughter had just visited and was planning to apply- then it rose in stature*</p>