<p>Well in case someone from Ithaca is reading this, I'll lend a little personal insight. When my D filled out the paperwork it was before she had her audition and had met with the staff. She knew of Ithaca's reputation but she had no personal exposure to Ithaca when she was responding. After the audition and having gotten to meet and interact with the Ithaca faculty she was very impressed and very comfortable with them. She felt they would be a nice group to work with. So my point is, an honest answer when she first filled out the paperwork and later might have been quite different.</p>
<p>Susan, I don't think asking the kids to rank the schools is o.k., but asking where else they are applying just doesn't seem wrong to me. When my daughter recently auditioned for a professional theatre, they also asked her which schools she was applying to. I think they just wanted to get a good sense of her future goals and what type of performing experience she wants to gain in the next four years.</p>
<p>I wrote a post but could not get it to post and could not get CC to load. I luckily saved it but anyway, I wrote it before your latest post tina...but here it is:</p>
<p>I'll add another comment and it is an observation. I work with and advise many students applying to college. I make sure that they have written a statement to each of their colleges addressing why they wish to attend. If I had let most of them send in their first draft of such a statement, it would be inadequate in many cases. It is not specific enough to that school. I force them to explore the school more deeply and to articulate exactly how the school fits them. Their statement should not be interchangeable with their statement written to another school. Further, their statement should not be interchangeable with what another student could have written to the same college. The statement should not regurgitate that X college has A, B, and C and read like a brochure of the college but rather why A, B, or C matters to them and why that is important to them and how that fits them. </p>
<p>Even well before the application process, when selecting schools, I want students to articulate in writing why each school is on their list, compare and contrast them, jot very specific notes about each school (which requires in depth exploration of it), and see how each school matches up with their personal selection criteria (which actually should be articulated before even selecting schools for the list). I can't tell you how many kids cannot do this!! They simply find schools, in this case, that offer MT. They know very little about each one or why it is or isn't a fit for them. If they can't articulate that to me, then they can't on an application and then again in an interview or audition. </p>
<p>It is very important to pick schools that fit one's selection criteria. It is very important to explore one's schools in depth. It is very important to be able to articulate your interest in a school specifically on an application and again in an audition. I interview a lot of kids for admission to my alma mater, and there is a great difference in the responses I get when I ask about their interest in the university....in terms of showing me how well they know the school and can explain specifically why it matches them. Believe me, one learns a lot through these probing questions without ever asking where else they applied. I find out their college selection criteria before even asking why they are interested in this college. I think about how that criteria matches up. How specific is their criteria beyond basic things like location. I look at how well they even know the school. Lots of kids can't do this! With my advisees, many also can't do this adequately but I make them and they write many drafts of such statements after I make them learn more about the college. Many do not do this on their own. And I imagine it shows on the application and in an audition interview. </p>
<p>But now, just to respond to what you wrote in post #42...
As far as auditioning at a professional theater, that would be different in my view, to ask where she is applying to colleges. They are not gauging her answers to see if she will pick their school over another. They are just looking at her goals. But when a college asks it, I think they can look at the student's goals very specifically and their interest in that college without having to know where else they are applying. When I apply for a job, I don't expect the employer to ask where else I am trying to get a job. I expect them to ask me why I want to work THERE and what my goals are for this type of a job.</p>
<p>Of course, everything you say makes sense. (As always :) ) But, just to play the devil's advocate, I will say schools just may want to know if a student is applying to 5 BA programs and just one BFA program, or all BFA programs, etc. It just might help give them an idea of how serious a student is about going for a BFA. I don't think I am articulating this properly, but I think understanding the student's school wish-list is quite informative...even if that students shows great interest and knowledge about the school.</p>
<p>tina, I understand what you are saying but I think there are other ways to accomplish that same very valid rationale! They can ask the student why they want a BFA and not a BA school. </p>
<p>Here are some pitfalls of colleges asking where else are you applying.......let's say they are your safety school. For example, my older D had as one of her safety schools: Lehigh. If Lehigh had asked where else she was applying and she replied Brown, Yale, and Penn, they might think, hey, this kid is not gonna come here! But she deserved to have safety schools and in fact, she needed them and she may have not gotten into the reachy schools. Lehigh accepted her with a merit scholarship. Let's take a MT kid....I have many advisees who have both BFA and BA schools on their list. Some have more than one kind than the other and some have a mix. I don't think the other schools need to know this. If they are a BFA school, they need to know that the student is appropriate for a BFA path and understands what a BFA entails and is 100% commited and so on (the various reasons why a BFA or a BA are appropriate for certain preferences in a college experience). So, if a kid says, well, I want to double major and I may want to go into theater but I may want another career, that would show that perhaps the kid is not right for a BFA. There are ways of determining the seriousness of the student for a BFA without knowing where else they applied. So, I agree with the objectives you mention very much. I just think there are many ways to find these things out without knowing the rest of their college list. I ask my own students many probing questions in fact, and I can tell who is best suited for a BFA and who for a BA simply by their answers!</p>
<p>When I auditioned at Catholic University earlier this month, they asked on the audition form what other schools did I apply to. They also asked me to rank Catholic as either my 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice. I'm going to be a transfer student from a BA Theatre Performance program so I only applied to 3 schools. Catholic was my first choice. They also asked me after I did my audition material why Catholic was my first choice and if I truly felt like I belonged there. It was a little uncomfortable but I told them the truth and they liked my response. A few days later, I got my acceptance into the program.</p>
<p>I agree with you, Susan. There are certainly other ways to find out this information. On a private note, did you ever get my email? I would love to give you an update on my daughter. (I sent the email a few weeks ago.)</p>
<p>Tina, I did get your note. I am sorry to not have written back yet. It is hard to keep up with volunteer PMs and emails that come in through this forum about individual cases. I try to volunteer many hours on the forum to reach many people at one time but I have trouble fielding the individual emails. I am just a volunteer on CC, nothing more. I am very busy with my students and families and have to deal with their email every day, which I have to put first. As well, the types of PMs and the individual issues in them that people ask me to field on a volunteer basis are of the same sort that I field in my job. Right now, I am also dealing (as a volunteer) with the interviews and reports on students who applied to my alma mater. I have had a note to myself to write you but sometimes I don't get to the PMs that come in through CC, once I am done volunteering on the forum, on other things, and doing my real job, LOL. I'll see if I can get back to you at some point. A lot of such PMs come in every day and I could have a full time job doing volunteer work but I have to do my real job first (though I still seem to hang out on the forum and try to help when I can).</p>
<p>(soozievt, you do an amazing job!)
To make things less stressful, the schools could at least disclose WHY they're asking the question. They could easily allay undo concern with a simple disclaimer: for marketing purposes only, or something to that effect. Unless, of course, it's part of the assessment of the kid. If it is, seems like they should say so. But as you so articulately point out, soozievt, there are so many other (better) ways to glean the assessment information.
Check this out--from CC's own "ask the dean" department:
Question: College applications often ask for the names of other colleges to which the student is applying. How do admissions officers use this information? Should the applicant list all the other colleges he or she is applying to, even if it is a long list?</p>
<p>The majority of college applications do not ask students to list the other schools to which they are applying, but it</p>
<p>(sorry--typo--I have to undo that "undo" and change it to "undue")</p>
<p>mahm, thanks for finding that terrific advice, written by my friend and colleague, Sally Rubenstone. I agree with all she wrote. </p>
<p>The final part about saying the list is not finalized would not work, however, at BFA auditions in winter time (she is referring to regular applications in the fall). But as I said, my own kid, when asked this at some schools like Ithaca and Syracuse on the audition form at the campus auditions, filled in some of her schools, but not all. Other than that, she focused on her applications and in auditions and interviews, on why she wanted that particular school and she could demonstrate that she knew it well. That's what every student truly needs to do, even if a few schools have this (annoying) question. The majority DON'T ask this, as Sally notes, particularly very selective (regular) colleges don't.</p>
<p>I have been debating responding to this thread because it is so very controversial. Let me begin by saying upfront that I completely understand that some of you feel that the question shouldn't be asked and I am not entering into that debate.
I can only speak about one school, but I thought a few of the newer members might be interested in hearing one college rep's reasoning. I can't address the ranking question because we don't do that and it wouldn't serve any purpose for us.
The BFA audition arena has changed quite a bit over the last five years or so. Programs have had to evolve to reflect the changes just as much as applicants have.
We use the information to <em>try</em> to determine how many students to admit. Our curriculum is designed around a small freshman class and we can't handle an over-yield. Every school sees more qualified, talented students then they have room for. If everyone we are considering has auditioned for twelve schools, we will admit one or two more because we know that they will all have multiple options and some will choose to go elsewhere. I know that is the purpose of the waiting list but the reality is that by May 1st students have committed to another program and are (understandably) reluctant to accept an offer.
We do not use it to decide who to accept and who not to accept. We accept the students we feel to be a good match regardless of where else they applied.</p>
<p>On a personal note, though it may seem counter-intuitive, I love to see an applicant who is applying to many schools. It tells me that they understand these types of programs and are more likely to be content in the program that they ultimately choose. When I meet with HS juniors interested in FSU I always recommend that they audition for multiple schools because it is important to me that all of them end up with options whether they like our program or not.
As I stated earlier, I expect my reasoning to be refuted but I thought it might be interesting to some and please remember that it is just one point of view.</p>
<p>All4FSU, I appreciate your sharing with us from your school's perspective why your school asks this question. </p>
<p>I am wondering two things....
You talk about the number of schools a candidate has applied to and if they applied to a lot of schools (like 12), you have to assume there is a reasonable chance they may not attend your school if accepted and so you have to plan accordingly as to how many kids to admit. </p>
<p>But.....can't you achieve that by just asking "how many schools did you apply to?" without making them name the schools?</p>
<p>Also....most applicants who are well informed about this process, tend to apply to at least seven schools. I think it would be safe to assume that many contenders for your program have a list of schools and may not end up matriculating at your school. I have run into a few kids who have only 1-4 schools on their list, but often, these are the less informed applicants, in my experience, who are not that aware of how highly competitive and the low odds at these programs and did not plan accordingly.</p>
<p>My $.02 on this, in order of OK-ness to really bad practice on the part of the schools:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Ideal - SoozieVT's approach of trying to determine fit by asking general questions about goals, preferences, etc. without asking for specific school names auditioning for. </p></li>
<li><p>OK, but not very useful practice - simple unranked list of schools on a form or app. It seems many schools do this, but if they are trying to derive a kid's thought process from this, it may yield faulty assumptions. </p></li>
<li><p>Bad Practice - asking for a ranked list. The schools are expecting a kid, who might me 17 or younger, for personal opinions that might not be fully formed yet, especially if, like many auditioning students, they have not visited many schools and are waiting for audition time to do that. Their views of individual schools early in the cycle might be based simply on the web site and gossip around the lunch table. My kids' views on schools evolved from Nov. to March. </p></li>
<li><p>Really Bad Practice - asking a student whether the emailer's or caller's school is their #1 choice in a personal email or worse, in a phone call days or weeks after auditioning. Here you have a trained, adult professional asking a young kid a question at a point when they are extremely nervous about their future, waiting for their admission results. And of course, the outcome of the process involves the investment of HUGE amounts of money. It is a very unfair situation. </p></li>
<li><p>Really Really Bad Practice - asking # 4, or the ranking list, live at the time of the audition. Same issues as #4, except the student is even more vulnerable and defenseless, standing there in front of the auditors. This does happen, and it seems to me it is possibly unethical. It is like a Realtor separating a kid from his/her parents, and trying to negotiate a deal on a condo based on how cool the kid thinks his/her bedroom is going to be. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I believe these practices are probably looked down upon, or prohibited by the main admission offices, but of course in these performing arts audition situations, Admissions is rarely present. </p>
<p>I am fully aware of the many challenges that administators face in making their decisions. My response: tough, that's what you get paid for. Adults should not be cornering kids and demanding full disclosure of their mental state. </p>
<p>Fortunately, there many schools who do not do these things. Those who do not, deserve a mark in the plus column.</p>