<p>Burn this--my D from her weak school system graduated in the top ten percent of students at WEsleyan.</p>
<p>My Son from the same weak school system is has a 3.6 GPA at Columbia.</p>
<p>No, I don't agree with you.</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>I get your point now. I am not sure that I agree that the new SAT is more content-based than the old one. There is a little more advanced math than the old one, but not enough to make a difference. At least, according to Xiggi, there are very few trig questions on it. The major change to the Verbal part is the essay. I don't like its boilerplate character but I see it as being forced on the CB by colleges which have become fed up with poor writing by college students and college app essays that have far too many authors to give a true picture of even a student's potential let along preparation.</p>
<p>I can't believe so many of you are defending the SAT I. I've taken the SAT and the GRE (which is as similar to a pre-1994 SAT as a Buick is to an Oldsmobile), and I can tell you that the things I did to prepare for these tests had NOTHING to do with enhancing my ability to handle high school, undergraduate school, or graduate school work. Learning the fancy vocabulary words, the Joe Bloggs Rule, working backwards in word problems, taking practice exams, learning to pace myself, etc. didn't make me any better educated. But I did earn brownie points.</p>
<p>SAT IIs and AP exams are a MUCH better way to compare students across schools. They have their flaws, and it would be a tragedy if school revolved around these tests (or any other tests), but at least these tests are based on what students are supposed to study.</p>
<p>Although I liked the brownie points I earned on the SAT I and the GRE, I found the tests to be an insult to my intelligence. Colleges that insist on these tests for admissions send a negative subliminal message: that gaming the system is more important than actually learning and accomplishing things. Professors complain that students are too anti-intellectual, ask "Will this be on the test?" incessantly, hate studying, refuse to actively participate, etc.</p>
<p>Exactly what do the SAT I and GRE measure? Would I have been a lesser student if I had never bothered to prepare for the SAT I and GRE? According to the SAT I and GRE apologists, I would have been a worse student if I hadn't studied for them, or studying for those exams is cheating. You know that the SAT I and GRE apologists are Flat Earthers when they have to claim that studying is cheating. According to that twisted logic, students should never crack open a textbook because smart students would be able to learn 100% of everything within the confines of the classroom.</p>
<p>I'm not an expert on the new SAT, but getting rid of the analogies was also a loss, in our eyes. Everyone in my family has always thought that they are the easiest part--and not something you learn in school. </p>
<p>But as i said, maybe the changes weren't that big. I really have far more beef with the SAT 2s, anyway.</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>My S got a perfect score on the analogies, too. It was the critical reading that led to his less than perfect score. On the SAT-Writing, it was again the essay that was his Achilles' heel. And yet, I prefer the critical reading section than the analogies. Although the essay is highly subjective, I'd like to see it play a more important role eventually when both students and graders are more comfortable with it. It is not more or less subjective than GPAs; and at least, an in-class essay carries the guarantee that it was written by the student and not someone else.</p>
<p>Someday, if I can find it :), I will show you the "6" essay. It is chilling how off the score was.</p>
<p>Let's get the moderators to set up one of their polls. We could vote on whether to chuck the SAT. I vote for chucking it. I agree with the poster that commented about 4 hrs of tests vs. 4 years of hs (and I believe he was from UVA).</p>
<p>I vote not chucking it--a lifeline for kids who didn't get the same four years of high school other kids did.</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>I have no doubt that graders can be wrong. I hope that the essay graders will be better trained in the near future, with more experience. There will remain an area of subjectivity. But an essay that should have received an 11 or 12 will be less likely to earn a 6.
But my point is that the SAT essay grading is no more subjective than school grades. I have not always agreed with my S's teachers about the grades he got--though I did not argue with them. Sometimes they were higher than I thought they should be, sometimes they were lower.</p>
<p>ah, ha! We smoked out marite...she likes the <em>new</em> SAT!! :)</p>
<p>The new one? Chuck it.</p>
<p>Nothing to smoke out.<br>
I do not like many aspects of the SAT and have said so since the 1980s. I have also posted--repeatedly--that once both graders and students are more familiar with the essay, it will be a valuable element of the SAT. Right now, it is considered too unproven to be used by many colleges. Fair enough. </p>
<p>I vote for not chucking it. Not only because it is a lifeline for kids from mediocre schools but because it is not subject to cheating, teachers' whims and misrecording of grades (my S has been a victim of this both in high school and this year in college). I say this as a poster who has helped countless CC students with their application essays. If I were an adrep, I'd rather judge the unadorned prose produced by a student at an SAT test site than the heartfelt, sincere, personal essay of the same student after it's been edited by marite or someone else.</p>
<p>Why continue to help them, then? And I, as one parent, would not dream of helping my son, or getting him help, on his essay. I don't care what the cost. I hope there are other parents out there who feel the same. I think it's a bit cynical, at this point, to assume all kids receive help on their essays.</p>
<p>You might feel differently about this particular test if your own child were one of the present cohort of guinea pigs. It's a nice experiment - yes. I feel queasy experimenting on kids.</p>
<p>I'm not so sure in its present form it is or will be a "lifeline." That remains to be seen.</p>
<p>Actually, what I'd like to see with the SAT writing is that, rather than grading them, the essays just be sent to the schools, so they can use them as they want to. I'd also like there be more time for them--as a writing teacher myself, I find the 20 minutes a bit short. Give them an hour, let them use computers so that readers aren't influenced by handwriting, and send'em straight to the schools. I think all that would be really useful.</p>
<p>HH--no need to "smoke out" marite. She is one of the straightest shooters on CC. I like her intelligent forthrightness, even when I (rarely) choose to spar with her.</p>
<p>The SAT writing is scored "holistically", which means it can be based on a reader's whim. S/he might like the handwriting, the length, the number of three syllable words, etc. Another reader might disagree completely.</p>
<p>In other words, there are absolutely no established criteria for grading the essays. Thus, you have kids who receive occasional whacky scores.</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>I agree with you about sending the essay to the colleges. In that case, I would not mind not including the essay grade in the SAT score. I also like lengthening the time used for it. Twenty minutes is too short to write anything thoughtful.</p>
<p>Although I remember having to spend three excruciating hours producing an essay on a poem that was so full of platitudes that it would have taken only ten minutes to write. "This poem stinks." Unfortunately, we had to write an essay of a length commensurate with the amount of time we had been allotted. And as a classics student, the grade I was going to get was heavily weighted. The poem was by Sully Prud'homme who got the Nobel prize in literature over Tolstoy. Yup. The Nobel prize committees are also highly subjective. If you've never heard of him, no need to worry. He remained on the French curriculum only because of his Nobel prize and for the sole purpose of causing anguish among bac takers.</p>
<p>It seemed to take me a while to have the fact that there are differences between the old and new SAT acknowledged. Phew!</p>
<p>Difference of opinion :)</p>
<p>I will shut up now and listen to other ideas :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think it's a bit cynical, at this point, to assume all kids receive help on their essays.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I assume no such thing. And it is precisely because I assume no such thing that I think college essays should not be relied on too much. Because there ARE students who are helped, some by their parents, some by their teachers, some by professional college counselors (see under Kayvaa Wiswanathan--several threads on CC) and some who are not. A level playing field? NOT.</p>
<p>Hereshoping:</p>
<p>Where did I say there was no difference? Where?</p>
<p>The title of the thread, which was not started by you, was about ditching the SAT. Not the old SAT, not the new SAT, but the SAT. I argued for reasons why, flawed as it was, the SAT, whether old or new, was worth keeping. Show me where I said there was no difference between the two.</p>
<p>"At least, according to Xiggi, there are very few trig questions on it. "</p>
<p>After more than one year of the "new SAT," we still see a few misconceptions. This is what might show up on the SAT Reasoning test: Number and operations; algebra and functions; geometry; statistics, probability, and data analysis. No trigonometry. </p>
<p>As far as differences between the old and the new tests, they are a LOT more subtle than some of the discussions herein might intimate. A 7th or 8th grader would probably earn similar scores on both tests. Of course, that has a lot to do how the younger test takers approach the test: they tend to answer what they know and skip what they do not know, which is surprisingly little considering the level of the test. It is also worth remembering that one can score above 600 without answering a single question of level 4 or 5, and only answer questions of 1, 2, or 3 difficulty.</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>I stand corrected! No trig. So no need for 11th grade level math. Hmm...</p>