What would you do? Have you been in this position?

Parents Forum
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<p>FYI, regarding law school. I am affiliated with a top 20 university with very well respected law schools & MBA programs. The job market for the 2010 grads is NOT what it was when they entered school and many are now scrambling realizing that a big paycheck is not waiting for them along with the degree. Couple that with shrinking endowments for fellowships. So, as others have noted, please make a mental note of graduate school vs. professional schools.</p>

<p>As far as considering it a bribe, I disagree. It’s a “welcome to the real world” choice. The OP is saying that of the three schools, they all seem to be on the same level, so it’s not forcing him to turn down an Ivy for a state school. For my D, we told her we could pay x amount per year (the amount of our state flagship) and that we’d have to see how the chips fell for the rest. The reality was that if one of her higher ranked schools ended up being a front runner, we would have made it work if it was in a certain range. She ended up choosing a full ride NMF package. Guess what? That means that we’ll be able to help her with grad school, I’ll still buy her the American Eagle dress she saw, and when she does study abroad, we’ll be able to fund “fun tourist stuff :)” Could we do that if we were paying full freight for undergrad? no. Would I want my undergrad to take out loans if a full ride was sitting on the table, given the uncertainty of the job market? No way!</p>

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<p>Would I want my undergrad to take out loans if a full ride was sitting on the table, given the uncertainty of the job market? No way!</p>

<p>We felt the same way. And, if the student is interested in law, med, business, or some kind of unfunded grad school (sometimes you do have to pay for grad school), then it’s nice to have not spent a lot for undergrad, so that loans (and sometimes parents) can pay for professional school. </p>

<p>I know that NSM mentioned a fellowship for law school. Those aren’t typical, it may have been an unusual circumstance, the student may have been a URM… who knows. Nothing anyone should ever expect or count on.</p>

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<p>My D was in a similar situation. She got almost full tuition at a school that was not real high on her radar screen. She got into several other top rated LACs (Bard, Smith, Wheaton) with decent packages, and also got into our flagship U’s Honors College. Our agreement has basically been “You cover tuition; we’ll cover room & board”. We did not have the option of paying full freight at the LACs, and we didn’t want her to assume a huge debt. She went to a couple of the schools to see if she could negotiate her aid package up. A woman in financial aid at Wheaton (MA) said something that I think is often forgotten: Financial fit is part of “good fit”. While she still felt ldisappointed, D took the better package; and (aside from the usual freshman angst/issues) it’s turned out to be a very good experience for her. She’s been abroad TWICE (full semester and intersession) and will graduate with less than $9K in loans. I know it’s hard for a 17-18 year old who has never had to deal with money to understand. So, I hope OPs son “gets it”.</p>

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<p>“I know that NSM mentioned a fellowship for law school. Those aren’t typical, it may have been an unusual circumstance, the student may have been a URM…”</p>

<p>Student is a white female who’s attending a second tier public. I don’t know her grades or any details about the fellowship. Before she told me she had gotten such an offer for law school, I hadn’t known they were offered.</p>

<p>Still, a NMSF student clearly has the brains to get some excellent fellowships to graduate school – if they choose that path after college. The student now could find out what kind of fellowships are available for law school. Keep in mind, however, that many college students end up with different majors and career aspirations than they had in high school.</p>

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<p>“People who get into those very expensive top law schools tend to get jobs that allow them to pay off their loans.”</p>

<p>I know a woman who interviews applicants for state legal positions, and she says a number of very interested (and interesting) candidates quickly figure out that they can’t afford to take a position with the state because of student loans. Ditto for public interest law firms and NGOs. That’s a pretty significant restriction in future opportunities, and now when larger law firms have substantially cut back hiring I’m guessing that a lot of young lawyers are really feeling the pinch.</p>

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<p>Having spent my entire career in the financial markets , when it came time for first S to apply to college I was so far gone in the whole process of “dream school” “fit” “reputation” “networking possibilities” total cost of attendance was not even a factor. The fact he had worked so hard from 6th grade on, and coming off the infamous Junior year,I could afford it, I felt nothing but the best would due. When you trade and invest you say 50 meaning 50,000, heck 1 million dollar face value bond is known as 1 bond. 100,000 investment may be referred to as a trade of 100- your get the drift. So, I did the same with evaluating 50k for school. I dropped the zero’s. But when the time came around and you were looking at 50,000 vs say 20,000 a year, all of the sudden the zero’s come back into play. Even though I planned on 50k a year school, as the OP can and was planning to pay, the fact that a meaty scholly has been bestowed upon their son does change everything, and in fact, your whole concept of the worth of one education vs another does comes into play.</p>

<p>That is how people allow their kids to apply to schools that once accepted seem crazy when compared to other options. Reality is different, and one doesn’t know until they know!.</p>

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<p>Top law schools have pretty good loan forgiveness programs for those who want to work in public service jobs.</p>

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<p>Yes, absolutely, but the key is “top”. Even far more so than undergrad colleges, the prestige of the law school matters tremendously. Law is a very split field - lots of solo practitioners/members of small and midsize firms etc eking out a living and another group getting starting salaries of $150k plus their first year out of law school with extremely high earning potential thereafter. Law school is NOT a good financial investment unless you are going to one of the very top schools.</p>

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<p>I like what Z-mom had to say; that there is a realistic family conversation to be had here about how much the parents are able to help. </p>

<p>At this point that will be fairly difficult, because the OP apparently was OK with applications going to schools that were probably financial aid reach schools unless those schools came through big time with merit aid AND she has a spouse who’s already decided it’s a “done deal” AND I got the impression that the OP was ready to spend Big bucks on the Favorite schools but is unwilling to spend that same money on these other colleges (might be wrong about that.)</p>

<p>But the conversation still needs to happen, and could go something like this: “Before the family makes a decision about your college we need to talk about what we can afford. At his point, we can’t spend more than $XXk per year on your college expenses. It looks like the costs for schools X, Y and Z are a good deal more than that, and without any additional funds I don’t see how the family can afford them.” Talking about what you can afford may be a way to end up where you need to be without just telling your student that he has no choice. He has a say, and so do you.</p>

<p>Ideally those parental concerns about money would occur earlier in the college selection process so that money factors can influence directly the schools that are applied for. That can help avoid the situation where the kid gets their heart set on a specific school BEFORE you have the financial aid package in hand. That conversation can go something like this: “School Z is a great school, and if you REALLY want to apply there you can, but you also need to know that the family can’t afford to send you there at the list price of $50k per year, and they can be pretty stingy with financial aid . We can afford up to $25k per year, so we need you to include schools that are more likely to be in that price range.”</p>

<p>The goal here is to use the concept of academic safety schools - which your kid will probably understand- and apply that to same concept to college costs: financial aid safety schools. (An academic safety school is one where it is highly probable that the NET cost of attendance will be well within what the family can afford, through a combination of merit aid and need-based aid. Just like with academic safeties, where you don’t really know that it’s a safety until they accept you, you won’t know if it’s really a financial aid safety school until aid offer letters come.)</p>

<p>And the CC mantra of “love thy safeties” works for financial aid safety schools, too. Just as the student should apply to a mix of academic reaches, fits and safeties, so should the student end up applying to financial aid reaches and safeties, ANY OF WHICH SHE WOULD BE HAPPY TO ATTEND.</p>

<p>Achieving that latter Situation -all schools that are applied to would be fine with the kid, and there are safety schools for the kid AND for the parents - is the goal of a successful family-based college application process. That Situation can be reached in a number of ways - a friend’s kid is deeply interested in game design and applied early and was accepted to U Rochester, which also grants significant merit aid to ~ 30% of it students. . . which this kid got, too. Another friend’s kid applied to a number of CTCL-type schools, got offered significant aid to one in the Midwest, visited there, liked it, and went. </p>

<p>Kei</p>

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<p>I posted this on another thread and thought I’d get better response here, since our situation is similar----</p>

<p>I attended an online chat with Miami the other night where it seemed many parents (and students?) are faced with the same OSU vs. Miami dilemma—which school to attend?</p>

<p>Here’s the facts: My son has been admitted to OSU (still waiting on Scholars decision) and just received acceptance into Miami honors program. He really wants to go to OSU. He wants the big college atmosphere/games/etc. His friends are attending as well.</p>

<p>So what’s the problem? My wife and I feel that the Miami honors program is tailor-made for him. And that the appeal of 6 home football games shouldn’t be the overriding decision criteria for attending a college. At the same time I know that OSU trumps Miami in the multitude of opportunities it affords.</p>

<p>Here’s the other wild card. Miami (as a result of scholarships) will be around 5,000 less expensive for us each year. I think we’re probably like a lot of families in that we could probably afford it, yet it is something that shouldn’t be ignored. (20,000 is a lot of money when you have another daughter yet to attend and looming retirement.)</p>

<p>My wife and I were thinking that our son should be responsible for the extra 5 grand (through stafford loans) and that if he truly wants to attend OSU then he should attach a price to it?</p>

<p>At the same time, I don’t want to make it about money and want him to be truly happy with his decision.</p>

<p>I guess I’m looking for advice…</p>

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<p>Ohiopublic: I’m assuming you mean Miami of Ohio?</p>

<p>According to the financial aid calculator a student loan of $20,000 comes out to $230.16/month for 10 years. Not a horrible amount. Of course, that could be lessened if he worked during summers & the school year & contributed as he went. As much as I’m not a fan of undergrad debt, that’s not a daunting number (although figuring a mortgage, etc. in could make it seem unending.) Will admission into the OSU Scholars program bring any additional merit money with it?</p>

<p>The OP’s son didn’t seem to have a favorite during the process & a full ride came out of nowhere. Your son does have a favorite and it’s not a HUGE difference in cost ($5,000 vs. $50,000 per year.) Even though you and your wife may think Miami is a perfect fit for him, he doesn’t. And ultimately it’s his journey. There are 2 schools on my D’s list that I’d love to see her attend (LACs with good merit money) but she wants the full college experience. And there will be more opportunities for her at the big school in the long run.</p>

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<p>My wife and I were thinking that our son should be responsible for the extra 5 grand (through stafford loans) and that if he truly wants to attend OSU then he should attach a price to it?</p>

<p>I don’t see anything wrong with either having him cover the cost thru a mix of Stafford and summer work…or perhaps you could “split the difference” (each of you pay $2500). </p>

<p>I know it may seem like it’s “6 home games” that is tugging at his decision, but I know how kids are in this area…kids who like that sort of thing really want the experience. And, it is a fun experience…going to games, cheering for your team…and …always being able to say that you’re an OSU grad.</p>

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<p>Thanks again to everyone. I’m enjoying reading everyone’s comments, and feel better prepared to continue the discussion with my son.</p>

<p>Lisa58 - Thanks. I will look for the thread later tonight or tomorrow.</p>

<p>MomWaiting - It is all “gut” right now for him. Now that his winter sports season is over, we’ll get him to focus more on specifics and plan an additional trip or two.</p>

<p>Deja - I’m happy to hear that the process played out so well for you and your son.</p>

<p>Consolation -1) We’ve always been willing to pay for college. I never said we weren’t.
2) My son is very responsible and understands the importance of balancing school, sports and fun. He has clearly demonstrated that to us. I sincerely hope that will carry over to college whether he has a car or not. </p>

<p>RobD. - Thanks for all your insights. Your posts have helped tremendously, and have helped me focus on what should be included in the the next conversation with my son. </p>

<p>Cadbury - Thanks. I hope he “gets it” too!</p>

<p>OlympicLady - You understand! We had planned to pay for any of the schools on his list, but then this “meaty scholly” (to one of those schools) became available and our “reality” did change. </p>

<p>Kei-o-lei - I don’t want to continue to explain this, but…We were not hoping for financial aid. If it was available great, but we didn’t expect any and that’s NOT how were going to make our decisions. Now, however, this scholarship is in the picture, and it certainly has made us more aware of how we spend the money that we had earmarked for college. We would be foolish to not analyze it closely, especially since it was one of the schools on his short list. It is a deal that’s hard to turn down. We, like most people, do have other goals for our children (and ourselves) that $40,000 a year would help achieve. </p>

<p>By the way, we also planned for financial hardship by having our son apply to a state school. Luckily, our financial situation is stable, but he would have gone there if it was not. </p>

<p>Thanks again to everyone. I won’t be back on until sometime tomorrow.</p>

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<p>Love the quote, love the reference. :)</p>

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<p>Jump- congratulations. What a fantastic problem to have (as you know). I seem to have become an ad-hoc therapist in my own town for people who can no longer afford the schools their kids think they’re going to next year, so I am happy to read of someone who actually has options on the table!!!</p>

<p>Agree with everyone else that a repeat visit is in order to gain clarity on some issues. However I disagree with most… and think that you need to take the subject of the car and grad school off the table for now. I think it would be hard for a 40 year old to make a life’s decision with distracting variables, and frankly, given what you’ve told us, the car and grad school are distractions.</p>

<p>You have other kids, correct? You have no way of knowing that you aren’t going to need Child Number 1’s college money for Child Number 2-- even if you’ve mentally earmarked the money for grad school. Or you don’t know if you’ll need the money for grandma’s kidney transplant, or to fix your roof, or what-not. What you know is that for now, you have money to pay X for school and that if the money doesn’t go for school it stays in a college fund which you have “earmarked” for grad school but of course there are no guarantees, right???</p>

<p>So I think you need to pare down the variables. You are looking at two schools, one of which costs, out of pocket, much more than the other. In your mind, the schools are equivalent, in your son’s mind one is inferior. You are all tasked with getting clarity on whether the schools offer the same opportunities, education, social life, stimulation outside the classroom, etc. And if they don’t, you need to assess whether the differences justify the big difference in price.</p>

<p>period.</p>

<p>What you do with the extra dough, or what opportunities your other children may need or want, or whether your son needs a car or will end up in law school … really, too much to handle right now.</p>

<p>Just my opinion.</p>

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<p>You have no way of knowing that you aren’t going to need Child Number 1’s college money for Child Number 2-- even if you’ve mentally earmarked the money for grad school.</p>

<p>Blossom is right. This is kind of where we were at. We had no idea of what the economic future was. We didn’t know if we’d need college savings for hubby’s health issues…and we didn’t know how well younger son would do merit-wise. </p>

<p>So, we really did want older son to take the more economical route…and it’s turned out to be the best for everyone. He loves his school, and younger son ended up with a great scholarship, too. So, now we can afford to help with professional school.</p>

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<p>Jumpstart -
When you make those plans to visit the NMF school, put the best spin possible on it. Arrange an overnight with a friend’s brother or a graduate of your high school, someone who will be friendly and show the school off. Give him money to treat his hosts. Let him travel alone if at all possible. So much of a kid’s decision is based on whether he thinks he’ll fit into school life. A great visit will do most of the work for you.</p>

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<p>OK…we were in your shoes four years ago. HOWEVER…we had the “money talk” before we even allowed our kid to apply to colleges. Our DD got a fabulous scholarship to her second choice school. She got some money…but not as much to her first choice school. The second choice school was also less expensive to begin with. We would have saved many, many thousands of dollars. Like you, it was a huge surprise when DD got that scholarship.</p>

<p>BUT we actually told her to make the decision without regard to the finances. We had been willing to pay for both schools BEFORE she got the scholarship and didn’t feel we wanted to change our minds after this surprise scholarship was awarded. In the end, DD chose the more expensive option.</p>

<p>I will say…we agreed with her choice…except that we would have loved to have saved the money. Sometimes it’s NOT just about the money (if you are able to pay the bills…). Our kid is graduating in four years with two bachelors degrees in two challenging fields of study. We know kids at School #2 and they are not graduating in four years. In addition, our DD goes to a school that has no teaching assistants…professors only. The personal assistance has been top notch (we expected this!!).</p>

<p>We didn’t want to “tell” our kids where to go to college. We did have some parameters…but they were clearly stated BEFORE the applications were sent. Yes…we have thousands of less dollars in the bank…but we have a kid who has been very happy at her school and has thrived there.</p>

<p>I do realize that sometimes the financial “landscape” changes for families. If that is an issue, then your family decision might be a different one. It might have been for us too. BUT nothing changed except that our kid was offered a “surprise scholarship”.</p>

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<p>My S had several options–one that was a full-ride and two that were >1/2 tuition & one that was full-pay. We let him choose but told him that we couldn’t really afford 4 years of full-pay @ about $50K/year. He chose one of the 1/2 tuition schools & will be graduating this spring, happy that he isn’t saddled with crushing debt. He honestly did NOT have any interest in the full-ride school & refused to visit, to my great disappointment. Am glad he was happy where he attended & has had some tremendous opportunities. He has had several full-time job offers, one of which he accepted. He also had several great interships. Not sure how things would have been different if he had gone elsewhere, but we’re all satisfied with how things worked.</p>

<p>Full freight vs. full ride is a HUGE difference, especially if the kiddo may want grad school, which many do.</p>

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<p>We were in a similar position-- just as the economy was crumbling. We had saved and thought we could pay and would pay for whatever school D chose. But seeing what was happening to the economy, our retirement accounts, and our industries put a different light on the whole situation. We were in the middle of application season and started to hunt more seriously for schools that might offer significant merit aid, in addition to the “dream schools” that would not (we would not get need-based aid) and a state-school option. We looked for scholarships to apply for. When all was said and done, we had on the table a full ride (which costs us and her literally nothing), a state school that would have cost $17,000/year, a few privates with significant merit aid that would have come in at around $28,000-$30,000, and a few full-price $50,000 a year options. When the choice is between spending $30,000 and $50,000 a year you can almost say, well, it’s a lot of money but why not go for the higher priced one if you really love it. But when the choice is between a free college degree (at a reputable school) and one that costs somewhere between $120,000 and $200,000-- at a time when our jobs looked none to stable–it looks a whole lot different. (As it happens our financial situation now makes this choice look like a gift from Heaven-- we’d be even more stressed if this had not happened.)</p>

<p>The “free” school has a great program in her major and its only disadvantage really was in its lack of prestige among her peer group and ours, frankly. It doesn’t prompt the “Great school!” comment from acquaintances, just a sort of polite nod. Though we felt badly that she didn’t really get to choose once the scholarship was offered, it was a no-brainer. Even she realized that, over the week or two she had to make a final choice. She was excited when she got the scholarship, but a little bummed at the fact that she couldn’t make a choice, couldn’t go to the school her friend was headed for, etc. She pretty much had to take the full ride and she knew anything else would be crazy – for us, at this time. She had liked the school when she visited and really her only hesitation had to do with the prestige issue, which she was steeped in from the culture that surrounded her in high school. She felt like a loser compared to her friends who were going to the more prestigious, highly ranked schools. She really did suffer from that, but she bore up and is now fine.</p>

<p>The school has turned out to be a fine choice for her. She has the advantage of not only graduating debt free, but of putting less economic stress on her parents (she would have felt awful knowing she had rejected a free ride and “made” us pay) and of getting her college feet wet in a less academically cutthroat, competitive atmosphere than she might have found at the higher-ranked schools she originally aimed for. She is enjoying her classes and is certainly not “bored,” as some would assume given that her “stats” are on the high end for this school (though not for her program, which is more competitive than the school as a whole.)</p>

<p>Anyway, it all depends, but I would not think it would be worth paying a lot more money for a vague sense of liking one over the other based on very limited information. We told our D that she should take the scholarship and if she really was miserable, of course she could transfer, it wasn’t like she was consigned to jail or anything. But give it a try, give it a year – and see if you like it. As it turns out, she does.</p>