What's going on with Dartmouth these days?

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<p>The problem is acquiring said maturity. The upperclassmen who drink had to learn their limits from somewhere. There’s nothing magical about the age of 21 which makes you suddenly a responsible imbiber. You learn how to imbibe from experience. Greek houses provide a safe environment for drinking, in that they make overimbibing virtually impossible, at least at open parties. There are no such limits in room parties.</p>

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Ridiculous naivete.</p>

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<li>Upperclassmen in Greek houses and those who want to drink will continue drinking at more or less present levels anyway;</li>
<li>Students who are only marginal consumers of alcohol presently will probably stop drinking altogether (but since they consume alcohol marginally, it poses no threat to them);</li>
<li>Freshmen who presently heavily consume alcohol will acquire it, by hook or by crook, and will face much higher risk of injury or death at private room parties.</li>
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Have you ever visited Dartmouth? This is a ridiculous caricature of the social scene here, and I say this as someone who thinks it’s rather limited.</p>

<p>It’s absolutely correct that the options outside the Greek system are limited. But it’s absolutely wrong to suggest that the only thing Greek houses do is encourage drinking. I would say it’s probably certain sports teams and the frats they dominate which have more to do with a culture of overimbibing, as opposed to the Greek system as a whole.</p>

<p>The way you talk, I’m not even sure if you even drink socially. Alcohol is a social lubricant. Many, if not most responsible adults drink on social occasions. At my last class on a foreign study program in London, our professor bought and served us snacks and wine. It’s perfectly reasonable to serve alcohol at social events. People do not show up for dry dance parties or what-have-you because it’s simply less fun.</p>

<p>Honestly, what would you recommend? Forcing a culture of temperance upon a college campus is beyond crazy.</p>

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How many social events where you are from serve alcohol? Would you tell their organisers that “Adult social life doesn’t have to be that limited,” and urge them not to waste their budgets on wine or liquor?</p>

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The problem isn’t excessive drinking – it’s other things to do with the culture of Greek life here. The only irresponsible imbibers I’ve noticed tend to be freshmen.</p>

<p>People join Greek houses not because they want to drink, though for some that might be a factor. They rush because they want a place to belong to on campus. Honestly, I can’t blame them. There’s a reason that other societies like Amarna and Panarchy exist – people want a place they can call home at Dartmouth, and because of the D-plan, our dorms aren’t it. In a place like Harvard or Yale, your residential college or house is your home away from home – at Dartmouth, it’s your frat or sorority.</p>

<p>If you don’t rush, or choose not to, you need to work doubly hard to maintain your existing friendships and forge new ones. It’s often impractical. Being in a house of any kind makes it a lot easier.</p>

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A lot of my friends don’t drink or drink casually. As long as your daughter is ok with occasionally being around drunk people, she’ll be fine. I’d be more concerned about whether she will be ok with the Greek system here (or the alternatives to the Greek system, like the co-ed houses). Since so many people rush, she won’t stand out at all as a non-drinker, even in the Greek system.</p>

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Should the cops take it upon themselves to hunt down every person who drives even a smidgen over the speed limit, to the point of setting up sting operations on their home? While the analogy is ridiculous, the difference between it and the situation at Dartmouth is one in degree, not in kind.</p>

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That’s all well and good, but until the state and/or federal governments get their act together, the solution for college communities is almost universally to ignore all but the most egregious incidents (i.e. those of clear abuse). It works for every other Ivy and every other LAC. What’s so special about Dartmouth that H-Po has to set up sting operations?</p>

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These freshmen were being taken away from dorms, not from frats. Whenever you hear about an incident at a frat, it’s almost always a case of a fire alarm going off. Private room parties populated by inexperienced freshmen are a recipe for danger because there’s no supervision from experienced upperclassmen and no control valve on how much you can drink. For maximum bang for their buck, room party organisers almost invariably prefer drinks with higher alcohol content than would be served at frats.</p>

<p>Believe it or not, the Greek system isn’t part of the problem, it’s part of the solution. And I say this as someone who is not affiliated and isn’t a fan of most of the frats here.</p>

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You’re completely ignoring the fact that police officers have discretion in deciding how to handle individual incidents. There is no reason for H-Po to suddenly set up sting operations. By your logic, something really ought to be done about all those speeding drivers, and policemen really shouldn’t be letting people off with a warning.</p>

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It’s an event held at East Wheelock, if I’m not mistaken. East Wheelock was part of an attempt to alter the social life at Dartmouth by setting up a dorm-focused alternative to the frats. The problem is that they did this in such a way that they only attracted a particular set of people. East Wheelock is stigmatised as the anti-social cluster on campus, and I would say this is not without reason (though it may be exaggerated).</p>

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<p>That’s never been a valid excuse for failing to enforce the law. Lots of crimes happen everywhere - prostitution for example. Should Dartmouth frats be allowed to operate whore houses with impunity because prostitution happens everywhere?</p>

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<p>Of course I have visited Dartmouth. But hey, I’m not the one who dreamed up Keggy the Keg. Dartmouth students came up with that themselves. If drinking didn’t dominate the social scene at Dartmouth, the concept of Keggy wouldn’t exist.</p>

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<p>You are right. Drinking is not the only thing they encourage. Frats also encourage random casual sex.</p>

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<p>I’m not in favor of banning alcohol. I’m just in favor of the school, the student body, the community, and the frats de-emphasizing drinking to the point where circumstances will require them to put some thought, energy, and money into developing a wider range of venues for social interactions instead of just automatically relying on good ol’ ethanol. When the choice of social activities after 10 PM is alcohol-fueled parties at frats or nothing, that’s no choice at all.</p>

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<p>No reason except that the underage drinking at Dartmouth has been far too common for far too long. They evidently thought it was time to do something about it.</p>

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<p>The drinking is worse at Dartmouth. When the Yale students replace the bulldog mascot with a cartoon beer keg, I’ll worry about them too.</p>

<p>spunangle-- slippery slope or not, the federal highway funds actually ARE the origin of the nationwide 21 law. </p>

<p>FWIW…I actually believe the law should be 18 for beer and wine and 21 for hard alcohol. I believe this would curtail alcohol overdoses significantly. However, the law is the law and if they choose to enforce it, just like the smoking laws, there’s not a lot that can be done.</p>

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<p>I never said it was an excuse for not enforcing the law. But I think you are making this issue seem like its the most important issue in the world…it isn’t. There’s plenty of more important things our society, and even Dartmouth, should be focusing on. Let kids drink, they’re going to do it anyway…police should be catching real criminals, anyway ;).</p>

<p>Coureur: >>You are right. Drinking is not the only thing they encourage. Frats also encourage random casual sex.<<</p>

<p>From comments like this it is clear that you have an extreme bias against the greek system, and that you are unwilling to consider others opinions on it. As such, it is apparent you will be unwilling to consider alternatives to such, apparently completely rational, measures as sting operations by a small town police force against a few frat houses. While I understand your point of view is different than my own, your aggressive approach and bias have combined with a view of Dartmouth’s culture that apparently is either quite uninformed or extremely skewed, to create a completely unrealistic argument. Again, I in no way condemn your point of view, as you have a right to such. However, I do hold your argument is simply a collection of angry statements and broad (often boarding absurd) generalizations. </p>

<p>In short, does underage drinking happen at Dartmouth? Yes. Is Dartmouth’s actual amount of drinking more than most other colleges? Probably not. Will this new police policy create an environment that is less, not more, safe for underage drinkers? Undoubtedly. And it is that last answer that is what really should be addressed. Because laws, in their nature, are created to protect people. And when a law ceases to protect the population, and begins to harm it, than it is probably our duty, as thinking humans, to analyze the situation and make an informed judgement call.</p>

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If comparable communities tolerate brothels, why not? The argument is specious. Underage drinking is passed on in most college towns as long as nobody is harmed. The law is more than just its literal letter – it’s mediated by social norms and the needs of the community it is meant to protect. (It is notable that even the Hanover Selectmen were not behind, let alone aware, of the policy change, which was unilaterally decided upon by H-Po.)</p>

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Geez, that’s your proof? The culture at Dartmouth is barely discernible from that of other LACs, and only a smidgen more ragey than at other Ivies. Keggy’s popularity is as much a result of the administration’s failure to settle on a compelling mascot (the Dartmoose could have had potential if it didn’t look so goofy; I’m glad it was abandoned after my freshman year) as it is a result of the stereotype that we drink too much – and it is just a stereotype. It’s one we play up on purpose, but saying drinking is what we’re all about is like saying drinking is what office Christmas parties are all about.</p>

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You mean to say…Dartmouth is a college? Stop the presses, breaking news!</p>

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The lack of social options is a function of the lack of things to do in the countryside. If the college could sustain other activities beyond sports, the outdoors, and drinking, believe me, it would – but there really is nothing else to do. A very substantial portion of campus, including Greek societies, either doesn’t drink or doesn’t care much for drinking. It’s not like demand for alternatives doesn’t exist; it’s that the alternatives which crop up are deficient.</p>

<p>Even in a city, the social options after 10PM really are just to go out to a venue where alcohol is served, or to stay at home with some friends. What’s going to be open? You seem to be demanding something which cannot physically exist. Heck, our food court is open till 1am; our student center is open till 2am or so usually (it might be slightly earlier now because of budget cuts).</p>

<p>It’s also not clear what you actually think goes on in Greek houses. It’s not like everyone gets drunk; a lot of people don’t even drink. Again, mind you, a lot of the people who pledge are either casual drinkers or people who just abstain. The Greek system at Dartmouth serves alcohol, but we have no more alcoholics or raging alcoholism than anything you might encounter in a peer campus.</p>

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It’s been far too common for far too long everywhere in the country. H-Po is completely out of line with its counterparts in campus towns across the nation. Whatever reasoning the police might have, alcoholism at Dartmouth is not something the students themselves (many of whom again, I remind you, don’t drink or casually drink) or the residents worry about. The biggest issue the Greek system has to deal with at the moment is sex, and arguably race/class.</p>

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That’s your proof that alcoholism is a problem? Not hospitalization rates, not reports of vandalism/public disorder, but a mascot? A mascot whose de facto adoption was primarily driven by the administration’s failure to come up with anything better?</p>

<p>OOO a debate on underage drinking how cleche…</p>

<p>I would really say that Coureur, you do have a very skewed vision of the fraternity scene…</p>

<p>Just to briefly address some issues:</p>

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<li><p>Those who get drunk to the point of going to the hospital typically start off the night with hard alcohol and don’t get that drunk at the frats themselves. (grantedly that raises the issue of the frats serving someone who has had too much to drink)</p></li>
<li><p>Wouldn’t say that prostitution is quite the same as underage drinking… true both are illegal but I think that cultural norms make underage drinking more socially acceptable (and perhaps unfortunately) expected… The argument is whether or not a law should be enforced in a way that would cause a net harm to the community, not whether it should be enforced.</p></li>
<li><p>Frats encourage casual sex… not really more than any party with young people</p></li>
<li><p>There are things to do besides drink at night. (believe me I know because I’m involved in setting up a lot of things like a Jazz night performances, plays, movies ect. (even though for full discloser, setting up a party to compete with frats can be hit or miss,) Yes the frats play a big role but I have friends who have had plenty of fun with out stepping into one</p></li>
<li><p>Keggy is your example of how much we drink? Come on get a sense of humor. … If you are really going to use Keggy as an example of how ridiculous drinking is here, you might as well use the Yale’s sex magazine as an example of how promiscuous they are.</p></li>
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<p>P.S.
Keggy is NOT our mascot… neither the athletic department, Student Assembly have or will reconize him for obvious reasons. Right now SA is still considering the Dart Moose which in and of itself is a long boring story lol.</p>

<p>Poker with the Professors is an East Wheelock event but I snuck in from mclaughlin… It is kind of one of those things where once you get past the “this is nerdy” perspective that was a lot of fun and then after that I went to spend a little time at the frats… Kind of an interesting change of pace but I really think that it is really possible to enjoy both going out to frats and also other social options. Both have something to offer. (and now I actually know how to play poker lol)</p>

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<p>And how did this stereotype get established? Like most stereotypes there are many exceptions, but there is also a truthful basis that led to the stereotype.</p>

<p>Keggy doesn’t “prove” there is too much drinking, but it does suggest that students are much preoccupied with alcohol and partying.</p>

<p>The problem with Dartmouth students is that they think if the law is enforced and frats made to clean up their acts then Dartmouth won’t be any fun any more. This suggests a sad lack of imagination. Nobody can envision a social life that doesn’t depend on frats and beverages they serve. </p>

<p>I’ve seen and been associated with many other colleges, and all of them have some drinking and some underage drinking. But Dartmouth has taken it to another level beyond most other schools. The other school I know best is Harvard. Harvard has underage drinking to be sure, and everyone likes an occasional party. And the abulance even gets called on rare occasions. But the vast majority of students still manage to create for themselves a vibrant social life that revolves around things other than alcohol. Dartmouth could do this too. But Dartmouth students apparently believe that such a thing is not possible. That’s kinda sad really.</p>

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<p>Excellent. You are beginning to look beyond the booze.</p>

<p>I think you missed my point which is that it is possible to enjoy a range of different social options… not just one or the other. (BTW: I have always varied my social options)</p>

<p>I don’t think that I can clear up your conception of Dartmouth but I would again emphasize that you really are just making frat=alcohol which is simply not true. They are social spaces, that like many social spaces that college students hang out at, do have alcohol. People do not just go and stand around passing around bottles of alcohol, and 10:1 the alcohol available is not hard alcohol. This doesn’t necessary make it okay… but the point is that this is not typically when or where the most dangerous binge drinking occurs.</p>

<p>Both by anecdotal evidence and my experience working for a year with my local EMS service, I can with out a doubt say that the most dangerous drinking is that which occurs in apartments and dorm rooms where the focus is solely seeing who can get as drunk as possible. </p>

<p>I am also kind of offended to have you stereotype some of the best and brightest students in the country. (self-call) I definitely think that the fraternity system is really misunderstood by outsiders. As a member of a couple of student organizations, such as SA, this topic isn’t a new one. (And if I here the term “Alternative Social Space” again I might just end up drinking… joking) There really are other options but I’m afraid that by constantly emphasizing the choice of other options, I am making it seem like it is impossible to enjoy the fraternity system with out drinking which is completely untrue. There are fraternity brothers out there that don’t drink (even though in fairness I will admit they are in the minority). Many people go out and have fun with out ever touching alcohol and I think those who have the most fun are those who don’t drink or drink in moderation.</p>

<p>P.S.
Did you know the majority of Dartmouth Students consider themselves: light or non drinker?</p>

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<p>Actually, from what I’ve read what they fear is not that there cannot be fun without drinking, but that the unusually open Greek scene at D will be fundamentally changed. Closed, by invitation only, like that at many other colleges. </p>

<p>I must say that your obvious anti-frat and quite possibly anti-D bias makes it difficult to take anything you say on the subject seriously at this point.</p>

<p>In my view, this entire situation–and the binge drinking culture in high schools too–is created by our nation’s ludicrous blue laws.</p>

<p>^^Anti D - absolutely not. I think Dartmouth is a great school. I just think it could be even better, beginning with providing better and wider social options for its students. </p>

<p>Anti-frat - absolutely. By their own choice frats have for many decades existed primarily as providers and enablers of substance abuse and casual sex - and some cases social elitism and exclusion. What modest benefit they provide at many if not most campuses gets completely swamped by all the disreputable behavior and they promote.</p>

<p>As for blue laws, that’s just nonsense. Blue laws have almost entirely gone away. But even when they were common I can see no reason whatsoever how requiring commercial businesses to be closed on Sundays promotes binge drinking.</p>

<p>I feel like people are blaming Dartmouth too much for its drinking image. Honestly, drinking happens at every college…</p>

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<p>I would have agreed with you before I actually had friends in a frat. They and their organization were NOTHING like the picture you paint. I mean NOTHING. Not in any single detail. Which proved to me that all frat scenes at all schools are not the same. At all. </p>

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<p>I am quite obviously using the term to describe laws put in place to circumscribe behavior on so-called “moral” grounds, which would include most alcohol and drug laws. (Not all: IMHO it is perfectly reasonable to have DWI laws. Of course, they ought to include prescription and over-the-counter meds as well as driving while tired if the point is to actually prevent harm, but since they spring from “morality” laws they generally don’t…the trucking industry being an exception.)</p>

<p>From an article in the Yale Daily News, a perspective on that wonderful Harvard social scene:</p>

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<p>The entire article is available here:</p>

<p>[Yale</a> Daily News - Final clubs provide controversial social outlet](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/university-news/2006/04/05/final-clubs-provide-controversial-social-outlet/]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/university-news/2006/04/05/final-clubs-provide-controversial-social-outlet/)</p>

<p>Somehow I doubt that the Cambridge police are setting up sting operations to trap the Porcellian seniors plying freshman girls with alcohol…</p>

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<p>Yeah, right. Yalies are always the most accurate source for information about Harvard.</p>

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<p>I wish the Cambridge police would. Maybe the Hanover police can offer them some pointers. Final clubs are just as disreputable as the worst Dartmouth frats and are a blight on the Harvard campus IMO. The big difference is that the final clubs are only a tiny portion of the total Harvard social scene. A large majority of students have nothing to do with final clubs - unlike Dartmouth where the frats dominate.</p>

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<p>Keggy suggests nothing of the sort. The only thing Keggy suggests is that Dartmouth students have a sense of humor. Which you apparently don’t.</p>

<p>Actually, I picked up that YDN article in a post on the <em>Princeton</em> forum where Princetonians said the YDN series was the most accurate about the social scene at P, as well as H&Y. So perhaps your dismissal is unwarranted.</p>

<p>And yes, a minority of Harvard males are involved in finals clubs precisely because they are deliberate practitioners of the social elitism and exclusion that you describe as part of fraternity life. A majority of D students are involved in frat life precisely because the frats at D do not practice social elitism and exclusion to any discernable degree. And it is that feature of frat life at D that people fear will vanish if frats have to fear that letting everyone in will result in people being arrested.</p>

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<p>Precisely.</p>

<p>A kid at Yale recently died because of alcohol consumption and around 8? were hospitalized for alcohol poisoning this year at the (annual?) safety dance. This issue isn’t just about Dartmouth, I don’t know why we’re just picking on frats/Dartmouth here…</p>

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<p>Read: I don’t have any empirical proof to suggest that Dartmouth kids are more prone to die of alcohol poisoning or cause social disturbances.</p>

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The alternatives are simple: either we switch to a fully residential college system (this might take a lot of rejiggering and wipe out some of the benefits of the D-plan, but I’m less opposed to this than I once was), or we diffuse students’ social energy across a broad range of sociocultural opportunities. The latter is impossible unless we transplant Dartmouth into downtown Boston or Manhattan; the former is practically impossible because it involves a dramatic and drastic restructuring of the entire campus, both physically and mentally. Nobody really thinks the frat system is perfect and ideal, but given Dartmouth’s constraints, it’s the best we have.</p>

<p>And again, you seem to have no idea what actually happens inside frats. You seem to take it for granted that they are dens of evil drunken orgies.</p>

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Harvard is a 20-minute subway ride away from downtown Boston. Wonderful comparison. And seriously, of the Harvard students who go out after 10pm, how many of them do you think are not drinking, or not going to places where alcohol is served?</p>

<p>I’ve been to Harvard, and I don’t see any vibrant social life that differs from Dartmouth’s in any significant respect – other than that which exists because of Boston.</p>

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Nightclubs and bars serve exactly the same function. Why don’t we shut those down as well?</p>

<p>Social elitism and exclusion is one thing – although I notice you don’t seem to think date rape or sexual harassment is a problem. But there is no evidence that people presently drink more than they would if the Greek system disappeared or closed itself off completely from the campus. What H-Po is doing will not get rid of the Greek system, but it will make the Greek system far more elitist and exclusive than it currently is. Dartmouth’s Greek system is uniquely open, which is why it’s survived for so long, despite the natural exclusive tendencies of a Greek system anywhere.</p>

<p>It’s not clear why you think casual sex is “disreputable behavior,” but you seem to have conveniently forgotten that it’s equally common on just about every campus in the nation, regardless of how strong their Greek system is. Raging alcoholism to the point that people cause a public disturbance is a problem – but nobody, not even Hanover residents, has suggested that this problem exists at Dartmouth.</p>

<p>Have you seen what happens at other rural LACs? People will drink, with or without frats. Whether they are better or worse off without a Greek system is up for debate, but they certainly don’t drink any less.</p>

<p>I suspect you have this superficial view simply because Dartmouth having Greek houses concentrates the drinking in a handful of pseudo-public spaces. At comparable colleges with no frats, like Middlebury or Amherst, people pre-game and party in dorms. It’s less public, but they are still drinking at comparable levels.</p>

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Consolation’s stated it well enough, but the exact reason why the Greek system is so prevalent at Dartmouth is because it is tolerant of non-drinkers and people who wouldn’t fit the stereotypical Greek mold at other colleges.</p>