<p>So glad am I that the measures are not ‘only objective,’ whatever that means. If it means scores, that’s the very reason why we have acquired thousands of extremely capable Chinese & Indian students in our illustrious universities. Their best, their brilliance, was not good enough for their own countries, often.</p>
<p>"perhaps he was passionately and deeply uni-dimensional. "</p>
<p>My point exactly, ellen. Thanks for re-phrasing. Such portraits are what I often see on CC, & therefore what we can expect was relayed in the application itself.</p>
<p>I guess we can all bandy about ideas on what makes a great student, or what admissions offices are looking for… but the thing I always wonder about is whether the admissions offices ever do some serious research. Do they go out on campus and identify the leaders, the academic stars, the solid contributors and then go back and look at the applications for those students and see if they could see their future success? Do they challenge their own assumptions by doing statistical analyses? Or are they just flying by the seat of the pants?</p>
<p>One other thing, je<em>ne</em>sais_quoi:</p>
<p>It’s not just that too many GC’s (of even high-performing publics) are giving bad admissions advice & course strategy + e.c. advice, it’s also that apparently public schools are failing to teach the craft of writing. I’ll tell you that some of the rejects this year at my state’s 2 best public colleges submitted underwhelming essays. I actually worked with one student extensively, trying to get him to re-state his thoughts in his admissions essay. To some extent he resisted, preferring less clear idiosyncratic expression. To another extent, he shrugged off the essay as window dressing & a minor factor. Sorry: with 5-digit volumes of applicants, every little aspect counts. He was unprepared to write brilliantly, by his public education, which was hardly underprivileged. </p>
<p>A second student I have been working with is 2 years younger, but with writing skills as bad or worse, and in the same school. Writing is not being taught well enough.</p>
<p>Yes, geomom, they’ve done the tracking & have sometimes weighed in on this on CC.</p>
<p>Epiphany - the vast majority of the Chinese and Indian undergraduate students in our illustrious universities were born and brought up in the US. As an ethnic group, they tend to be more driven and focused on academics - hence, the increasing percentage of such kids in our elite universities. As far as grad students go, the vast majority of the Chinese and Indian students who come here are the cream of the crop. Their main reason for coming to the US is better professional opportunities - although in recent years many such graduates (especially from China) have headed home for greener pastures.</p>
<p>The problem with coming up with an objective and only objective measure for college admission purposes is highlighted by the SAT test. It was meant as a nationwide test to assess your “scholastic aptitude”–your chances of succeeding in college.</p>
<p>Now, even the test makers themselves don’t claim the test does. The test is still called SAT, but the letters are not an abbreviation for anything. </p>
<p>If you think the kids are under pressure now, just think if we had a system like Japan where your score on the entrance exam determined whether you got in or not!</p>
<p>Absolutely agree with you, geomom, that much of the writing I have seen by high school students (including my own kids) is surprisingly awful. But since I don’t have any specimens of my own work from my high school years, who knows–maybe I only remember my scribblings as good.</p>
<p>I volunteer in the college center at our local high school and I am often asked to look at college essays. One thing that I notice–the kind of writing that the kids are taught in high school (compare and contrast this and that, etc.) is just not the kind of writing that you need to do on your college essays. Also, some kids are just not into deep personal reflection.</p>
<p>Poor adcoms–when they come upon a wonderful essay, it must be so exciting (unless you think that someone else wrote it…).</p>
<p>geomom, my thoughts exactly. After admissions decisions came out my son’s year, I posted a thread asking if students thought that the elite schools had made the correct decisions. In other words, were the adcoms able to see through the data and eliminate mere posers, resume padders, the kids who supposedly do it all but nothing very well, those who look great on paper but can’t carry on a conversation to save their life, etc. Because I think the kids can see clearly who really are the truly engaged students, the real leaders, and the future movers and shakers. Also, sometimes the “top” students that high school teachers love are those who play it safe, follow the rules, and look for that formula for success. Not always, of course, but sometimes. So, recommendations can be deceiving too, especially in a large high school. Bottom line, are the markers the elite schools are looking for in high schools accurate predictors of success at college and beyond?</p>
<p>S’s friend is very bright and from an academic standpoint deserves to be at Princeton. The kid admitted to only having two main EC’s (one varsity sport, and one fun club) It’s possible there was something we didn’t know about, but if there was, it was not school-related. My guess is it could have been a summer job or research activity? However, the boy commented several times to my S that he could never do everything my S did and still get good grades, so his perception was that S was a superior student for that reason. Anecdotes are suspect because we don’t have all the facts. But I still hold that the kids themselves know what’s what. That’s one reason I really like Dartmouth’s peer recommendation requirement.</p>
<p>I don’t think it has anything to do with the fact that you are Asian. I personally know of a two girls one who is White and another who is a Minority in the traditional sense that were also rejected and they had absolutely fabulous test scores, class rank, ec’s etc. etc. My only explanation is that the Admissions officers must have been so overwhelmed with work they were unable to process the numbers of applications received, in which case, they should have hired additional staff or not market as aggressively to cut down on the number of applications they received. Your sons sound very successful and you seem very intelligent, I would guide them to follow their passion and look for an institution where they can get a “real quality” education, not just a “name brand”. After a year or so out of college, no one cares where you went to school, what matters is can you do the job !</p>
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<p>What? So not only do kids have to fill out their own applications, they might be called upon to write recommendations for their friends? It would certainly make them feel more empathy for their teachers’ writing recommendations.</p>
<p>PS–S’s essays were articulate, and well-written but not overly exciting or original. He excels at academic writing, but not creative. So, that could have been a weakness to be sure.</p>
<p>I stopped checking that thread I started, but most people thought that the Ivies were pretty on target with their admissions selections, though there were occasional exceptions.</p>
<p>Re writing skills. I have reviewed some of my son’s writing which has been less than stellar. I have directed him to redo it until acceptable. His response? The teachers think its fine. Unfortunately, with some of the writings I have seen from his school, I believe he is telling the truth. For example, an invitation to a school function began, “Your invited…”. He stopped me from calling the teacher about this. Another time, I wrote to the teacher via e-mail inquiring about a grade he received on something. After 3 e-mails (in the parent-teacher conference she directed us to e-mail her if any questions, etc.) I had to speak to the superintendent to request a response. Her response began with, “This is high school…”. Not Dear Mrs. X, Dear Parent, Dear … My two cents again.</p>
<p>Ahh, how to be exciting and original when your audience is an adcom who has read tens of thousands of essays. That’s tough!</p>
<p>Would love to have seen the essays of your S’s friend…any chance his friend would share them with him?</p>
<p>Hmm. Good idea. Seeing his essay could be useful for next child.</p>
<p>This doesn’t apply in my S’s case, but I have heard parents complain that the essay requirement favors liberal arts kids. But I would think that for the elite schools, a student needs to excel in almost everything.</p>
<p>My own analysis: I’ve posted this in past years but…</p>
<p>First and foremost, no applicant should be “fungible.” After reading your file, a lot of admissions reps consciously or unconsciously give you a “name” that’s a summary of you in a couple of words. You do not want that summary to be exactly the same as that of lots of other applicants in that pool. You need to make the rep feel that if he doesn’t admit you, **there **will be nobody in the class just like you. You’re different. </p>
<p>It’s really not being Asian in and of itself that’s the problem. It’s being a “typical” Asian. There is a male Asian profile: math or science, lots of math or science awards, possibly musician–if so does those same contests and submits those ranks, emphasis on classical music–usually piano, sometimes violin. if sports, probably tennis. Applies to certain schools, and often lists pre-med or engineering as probable major. Colleges aren’t just “worried” about being 50% Asian; they are “worried” about having 95% of the engineering majors be Asian. A girl who is interested in and well qualified to major in engineering is going to do better in the admissions sweepstakes than a girl interested in majoring in creative writing. It’s not really about discrimination; it’s about wanting to have “diversity.” </p>
<p>It’s a while ago now, but the Asian immigrant boy in my kid’s class who was a good swimmer got in everywhere–and I do mean everywhere–with worse grades than most. There weren’t a whole lot of Asian swimmers. In fact, the swim teams at many Ivies are 100% white. The coaches were salivating at the chance to have a team photo with someone “different” in it. The Asian girl who is an amazing artist got into Harvard–but tellingly, not Yale, which atracts more studio artists as prospective students. </p>
<p>Now, I’m not suggesting that your kids remake themselves into what they just aren’t. I am suggesting that they do four things. First, apply to schools where they are different. This means, in part, applying to schools with lower than typical Asian enrollments–as opposed to Stanford, which is over a quarter Asian. It also means applying to a college where their academic interests are rarer. So many kids research to find out the highest ranked engineering programs, or best physics programs, or best history departments…and then those schools gets hundreds of applicants interested in those fields. (It’s different if those interests are rare–if you really do have a well documented interest in linguistics, UPenn calls, geology, Brown, etc. )</p>
<p>Above all in essays and recs, do NOT portray yourself as a type–do NOT write an essay about being an Asian immigrant and growing up in two worlds, one Asian and one American. Unless you are an extraordinary writer, the admissions rep is going to have read at least 20 essays on the same topic and odds are at least one of them is going to say essentially the same thing you do and say it better. And at HYPS, there are undoubtedly going to be hundreds of applicants who had that same experience. </p>
<p>Instead, say and do something which is going to make you different. For example, years ago now, a stereotypically Asian kid wrote his Harvard essay on his step dance class. Phys ed is mandatory at his high school. He signed up for step dancing. He did it in large part because the class was overwhelmingly female and he wanted to meet girls. He succeeded. He was the only male in the class. He was also the worst dancer in his class. Here he was in this class full of girls he’d looked down upon as “not all that bright” and suddenly he was the one in danger of failing and was aware of the fact that those “not all that bright” girls were one heck of a lot more co-ordinated than he was. They also had a lot more stamina. He huffed and puffed his way through class. </p>
<p>He wrote his essay about that class and got into Harvard early–this was, as a I said, a few years ago. I’m sure the essay wasn’t the best written one…but I’d bet a lot that he came across as having a sense of humor and being able to laugh at himself–and, yes, interested in girls! I’d also bet a lot that essay changed his summary into something like Asian science klutz with sense of humor–which is MUCH better than Asian science nerd because it’s unlikely that lots of other applicants had the same summary. </p>
<p>Avoid materialism and trophy collection. I once heard an admissions rep explain the search for “passion” this way–"I want to read a file and learn that a kid cares about something–anything–and doesn’t just want to come to (prestige LAC) because he thinks it will help him make more money or get into law, med, or business school. " Schools DO want the kid who is a genuine intellectual–but they aren’t just going to take your word that you are. </p>
<p>In all honesty, while this year’s results are abysmal, I am once again impressed by the fact that the kids I know who march to the beat of their own drums did amazingly well. The girl who had the attitude that college admissions was going to be the “reward” for having been the girl who colored within every line perfectly for 4 years is reeling. </p>
<p>Again, please understand that I am NOT suggeting you reinvent your kids–in fact I firmly believe that it’s the kids who haven’t twisted themselves into pretzels in the shape that colleges “want” who do best. At the same time, I do not believe it’s the kids who are clueless and who usually have clueless parents and guidance counselors who do best. </p>
<p>It’s the kids who have a strong sense of self, learn the rules of engagement --or have parents or counselors who learn them and aid them–and do what needs to be done without changing themselves * fundamentally*. The Asian boy who wrote about step-dancing is an example of this. The ONLY thing he did for the sake of getting into Harvard was write a different essay than he would have written if his counselor hadn’t explained that he needed to figure out a way to differentiate himself from all the Asian immigrant science geniuses applying to Harvard. </p>
<p>None of this is guaranteed to work. And, ninety-five per cent of what your kid does should have been done for it’s own sake–not to get into a top college. But yes, personally I think it’s okay to do 5% to “package” yourself. If it doesn’t work, then remember above all that NO college purports to pick the most academically talented or most deserving of students. It’s all about building a “class.” </p>
<p>Using the usual analogy, think of a teacher casting a high school musical. She’s not going to pick the most talented singers and dancers. She needs so many girls and so many boys (as do LACs, these days.) If the 20 best singers to audition are sopranos, not all of them will get to be in the show. It’s quite possible that if the show is Guys and Gals*, the fat boy with a great personality but an only somewhat above average voice will get a featured role as Nicely Nicely, even though some really great sopranos don’t get a role at all. That’s how it works in college admissions. You aren’t just competing for a space in the class, you are competing for a specific role or roles. The competition for some roles–think middle class white or Asian kid from the Boston to D.C. corridor applying to HYP–is intense. </p>
<p>Good luck to all–and yes, above all..LOVE YOUR SAFETY!</p>
<p>PS re Princeton and the Asian kid–you think it might have something to do with the law suit? The one where an Asian kid is suing claiming P’ron discriminates against Asians? Maybe that publicity means fewer Asians are applying to Princeton–or maybe Princeton wants to get the word out that it does not discriminate and therefore admitted some Asian science nerds so as to keep getting applications from Asian students. I don’t know–sheer speculation.</p>
<p>^^^^excellant, excellant advice! I would put LOVE YOUR SAFETY first, especially in light of this year’s results.</p>
<p>“the vast majority of the Chinese and Indian undergraduate students in our illustrious universities were born and brought up in the US.”</p>
<p>Doesn’t matter. There’s an additional vast population of those emigrating, & who have emigrated, from those countries precisely because of the rigid “objectivity” of admissions standards, combined with the few “recognized” academic avenues. They come here & continue to come here because of opportunity as well as subjectivity, actually.</p>
<p>Those additional academic opportunities will THEN give them professional opportunities in spades – quite unlike the narrow paths offered in their own countries. It’s a steady stream of exit.</p>
<p>That sounds like superlative advice. As I think about this year’s results, and those I know from past years, it does not add up here in our HS district, I’m sorry to say. Some real white-bread wonders are regularly admitted to the top tier schools. Unless they had personality makeovers or hired an essay-writer to come up with some snazzy, memorable, unique persona, they got in because they did not need financial aid. Sadly, we do. </p>
<p>Are there high schools that colleges tap to fill the coffers, and less qualified students are admitted from them because it’s a given they won’t need financial aid? At our HS, that seems to be the case this year. The different drummers were overlooked for the full payers.</p>
<p>Hearing the step dance story, jonri, I’d say that was probably it. I do know what he wrote his essay about, and it was about that fun activity he does which is not stereotypically Asian. (By the way, did I mention that the sport he played was, indeed, tennis? We definitely saw him as a stereotypical male Asian science nerd, and thought Princeton wouldn’t go for him over other applicants from our school. For example, there was also an Indian girl for whom Princeton was her first choice, who we thought was very impressive. She had a great personality and her EC’s and leadership were not in stereotypically Asian pursuits.)</p>