@boolaHI, yep, some of the grad schools are insanely rich, but if you take out those endowments (and their students), that leaves a smaller endowment for the rest of the students.
State colleges are far better than ivy’s
“Well, the discussion is squarely centered around undergraduate education…and if you wanted to talk about graduate /professional school level, YLS, has them all beat with about 1.1 billion supporting just about 600 students.”
boolaHI, you cannot separate graduate students from undergraduate students when you are evaluating a university’s faculty and financial resources. If anything, graduate students and programs usually expend more of a university’s resources than undergraduate students and programs.
You also cannot ignore state funding in the case of public universities. It takes a private university an endowment of $6 billion to generate annual spending money of $300 million, which is what most elite public universities receive from the state annually.
But I agree, no public university can match the resources of Harvard, Yale or Princeton. But I believe Michigan and UVa have the financial resources that match those of Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Penn.
Alexandre, your main complaint seems to be that my points don’t put a couple of other universities (non-Ivies) in a good enough light.
For example, one of my points was that the Ivies are among the most selective colleges in the country. To elaborate, I stated that the least selective Ivy (Cornell) appears to be slightly more selective than the most selective state university (Berkeley). I’m not sure exactly what is being disputed here. That Cornell is the least selective Ivy? That Berkeley is the most selective state school? Look at the average test scores and the admit rates:
1410-1600 SATM+CR; 5.8% (Harvard, 2013)
1330-1540 SATM+CR; 9.2% (Brown, 2013)
1320-1530 SATM+CR; 15.6% (Cornell, 2013)
1250-1500 SATM+CR; 17.7% (Berkeley, 2013)
1280-1480 SATM+CR; 33.3% (Michigan, 2013)
If you want to say Michigan’s and Berkeley’s test score ranges are “similar, albeit slightly lower, ranges as Brown and Cornell”, well ok, but that’s not an issue of accuracy or relevance. Besides, test score ranges are just part of the selectivity picture. Look at the admit rates. But the bigger point here isn’t that there is a huge gap in selectivity between the Ivies and the top state schools. It’s that even the least selective Ivy is slightly more selective than even the most selective state school … which is one way to put my main point into perspective (that the Ivies are among the most selective colleges in the country, which I don’t think you’re disputing).
What I agreed to, in another thread, is that the S:F ratio is a crude measurement for comparing class sizes. But I did not only cite S:F ratios above. I also alluded to class size ranges. Again, look at the numbers for average class sizes:
75.6% < 20; 10% >= 50 (Harvard, 2013)
69.1% < 20; 10% >= 50 (Brown, 2013)
55.6% < 20; 18% >= 50 (Cornell, 2013)
60% < 20; 16% >= 50 (Berkeley, 2013)
47.1% < 20; 18% >= 50 (Michigan, 2013)
So ok, there’s some basis here to claim that Michigan’s and Berkeley’s numbers look pretty good against Cornell’s (which seems to be the Ivy with the biggest average class sizes).
I don’t see any dispute about the accuracy of my statements about Ivy graduation rates. I drew these numbers from Kiplinger’s. You’ve only stated that a few public universities have 4y graduation rates about as high as a couple of
elite private universities. Well, ok. You’re sorta making my point: you have to look at the very best state universities before you begin to see graduation rates that approach those of the Ivies.
Maybe so. But again, I don’t think your statements speak to the accuracy or relevance of my claim, which was only that the Ivies generally have long lists of distinguished alumni. Does anyone seriously dispute that? Does anyone seriously dispute that the Ivies are over-represented (on a per capita basis, at least) among F500 CEOs, college presidents, members of Congress, and other major centers of wealth, power, and influence?
As for your comments about “national drawing power”, again,I don’t think your statements speak to the accuracy or relevance of my claims. You just make more statements about Michigan … which happens to enroll an unusually high percentage of OOS undergraduates, compared to other state flagships. But even Michigan’s percentages don’t nearly match up to the Ivies:
84% Harvard
95% Brown
66% Cornell
39% Michigan
Of course, 39% of ~28K undergrads is a large number, in absolute terms.And most of the Ivies are located in small states (so we might expect their in-state numbers to be low). Even so, compare these pictures:
http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=217156
http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=170976
http://chronicle.com/article/Where-Does-Your-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=110635
At any rate, keep in mind my overall point for national universities (if not LACs as well):
for the combination of great students, great faculty, great facilities, and great aid … all 4 factors together … only a small number of other “elite” private schools (maybe 10-15) can make a strong claim to measure up across the board. If you want to add a couple of tip-top state universities to that group of “peers”, fine. I would agree that for many residents of Michigan/CA/VA/NC (and maybe a few other states), some of the Ivies would not be worth a big price premium (for a random arts & science major) compared to the public alternatives.
@hungryteenager (re post #30):
But also:
Stanford $18.7
MIT $10.9
Michigan $8.2
Duke $7.5
Texas A&M $8.1
Notre Dame $7.0
My point is, there are several non-Ivy universities that equal or surpass some of the Ivies in this category, as well as every other.
@tk21769, OK, but (and this is a point I made before) why should Cornell benefit by association with HYP when (as you pointed out) it’s characteristics are actually closer to Cal & UMich than to HYP? Because they play a football game against each of HYP every year? Does that reasoning make sense to anyone?
When there is such a big spread in characteristics among Ivies (a bigger spread between them than between some Ivies and some non-Ivies), does it actually make any sense to categorize schools by “Ivy” and “non-Ivy”? Yet you see people justify picking Cornell or some other non-HYP Ivy over another very similar school because they’re in the same sports league as HYP all the time. How much sense does that make?
Union, RPI, Colgate, and Clarkson are in the same hockey league as HYP, yet why don’t they get to benefit by association with them like Cornell does?
I will add a thought to @PurpleTitan’s post #45. While it seems fair to suggest the term “Ivy League” may axiomatically convey some stature and selectivity to many in our society, I respectfully suggest that most of those “who count” understand:
- That – while all the Ivies are extremely competitive, first-tier universities – there are significant differences between the eight schools, and
- That a number of non-Ivy League institutions equal or surpass some Ivy universities in highly relevant metrics and categories.
Therefore, while a high school classmate, or “Uncle Charlie," or “Steve” in you weekly golf foursome, or your neighbor, or your spouse’s best friend may view the eight Ivies monolithically, I rather doubt if too many major employers, hiring, officials, graduate and professional school deans and admissions directors, and so forth are equally unsophisticated.
@PurpleTitan It depends on which “characteristics” you choose to make an affiliation. For example, if the number of nobel laureates is the criteria, then Cornell is well placed with Harvard, Yale at the top of the Ivy League.
@TopTier The relative positioning of the Ivy schools is really a function of one’s course of study. Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, and to an extent Penn and Columbia are sometimes referred to as the “lower Ivies”, but it’s really an unfair and unwarranted characterization. For e.g., for engineering and computer science, Cornell is the place to be. For business, it’s Wharton etc.
@alum88 (re post #48): You’ve evidently missed my overriding point in post #47; quite possibly, MIT, Stanford, or Cal Tech – not Cornell – are the “places to be” for CS and engineering (to cite only one example).
@TopTier I am referring to Cornell being the place to be within the Ivy League for those subjects. Cornell is known as the “Silicon Ivy.” And, I think you are a bit misinformed as Cornell is a peer to Stanford, Caltech and MIT in those areas. There is a reason why Bill Gates financed the construction of the Gates computing science center at Cornell http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2014/07/30/silicon-ivy-how-cornell-is-prepping-young-entrepreneurs/, and why Cornell was selected over Stanford to establish Cornell tech on Roosevelt Island in NYC. http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/19/cornell-wins-nyc-tech-campus-bid-how-serious-had-stanford-been/ What’s more, it’s not unusual at all for a student to choose Cornell engineering over MIT if they want a more well rounded college experience. My cousin made this choice, and then went to Stanford for his MBA.
@alum88, in Nobel Laureates, Cornell is indeed roughly even with Yale & Princeton and above UMich, but trails Cal as well as Harvard (making Cal above Yale and Princeton).
Very few people say Cal is at the same level as HYP, however.
I do agree that prestige and opportunities do vary by subject. You can make the argument that Cornell is at the same level as HPSMC (and above Yale) in CS, but then, you can make the argument that Cal, UMich, UIUC, and UDub (and obviously CMU) are at that level as well for CS.
@alum88 (re post #50): I agree that Cornell is the “place to be within the Ivy League” for CS and Engineering. However, that’s only EIGHT universities in universe of x (you pick the number of superb CS and Engineering undergraduate schools, but we both know it’s a heck of a lot larger than eight). Remembering that in post #49 I specifically stated “to cite only one example,” my overriding point remains that perhaps a dozen or fifteen non-Ivy National Research Universities are legitimate peers with the Ivies, especially the (and I hate this phrase) the “lower Ivies.” Moreover, there’s a LOT more to an undergraduate education than a particular department’s stature; it ranges from the serious (aggregate university reputation and selectivity) to the whimsical (Palo Alto or Ithica in mid-February?).
@toptier Personally, for undergraduate education I strongly prefer the top LACs over nearly all of the top research universities. That said, I have one a daughter who will be a Penn freshman in the Fall who did not see it that way, but another who is going to an excellent LAC.
^ ^ ^
Well I do, too. However, a “full ride” was impossible to ignore.
By “full ride” I assume you mean merit and not need based, since the top LACs are all need blind and as generous, or more, with financial (non-merit based) awards as the top research Us.
^ ^ ^
Yes.
Never realized Duke offered merit aid since its peer schools don’t. That’s a bit surprising,but kudos to you!
@alum88, some of Duke’s peers do. Specifically, Northwestern, Chicago, and Rice (though NU’s merit awards tend to be small). So too do JHU, ND, CMU, WashU, Emory, and Vandy (and Cal, UVa, UMich, UCLA, and UNC).
And Caltech offers a very small number of big scholarships each year (like 2 or some tiny number like that).
You’re right that very few top LACs offer merit awards, though. Swarthmore gives out a tiny number. Mudd gives about a quarter of their class $10K in merit money. Davidson offers some. So do Richmond and W&L. Can’t think of much else.
Interesting info. I realized state schools offered merit money, and had heard WashU and Emory did, but I’m surprised by NW and Chicago. Some of the schools you mention were on our kids’ preliminary list, but we mostly focused on Ivies and LACs, and when D1 got into Penn ED we didn’t look in detail at WashU, Duke, Chicago or Emory (though we would have if Penn didn’t work out). D2 chose to go to a LAC (which I am very happy about), and it happens to be one where she got a very nice merit award.