@simba9
It’s hard to argue convincingly that a banana or an orange is categorically “better”.
Ditto for a latke vs. a hamantash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latke%E2%80%93Hamantash_Debate).
However, some measurable features are favored more by one or the other.
If you need more vitamin C, try eating more oranges. If you need more potassium, eat more bananas. If you hate oranges and can’t get bananas lately in your local store, then try another fruit. Or take a pill.
“I’m totally not getting some of these arguments. What’s wrong with saying if you like bananas, eat them, if you like oranges, eat them? Is there a way to definitively show whether a banana or orange is better?”
There’s nothing wrong with it, it’s just not very helpful.
“Some people prefer LACs specifically because they like the idea of having their work graded by actual professors who are experts in their field before settling on a major.”
This is overrated and really not needed in elementary CS or math courses - half the class are projects which are are graded when the program is submitted (i.e. it works or it doesn’t). And the tests in math and computer are objective in nature, which a grad student can easily do.
Also a lot of CS professors grew up studying older languages, its’ the grad students that know the more recent ones - Python, e.g. and data science.
I don’t think the apples to oranges comparison is correct. We are discussing differences between CS programs as offered by research universities and liberal arts colleges. I do think that there are quantifiable differences that favor a research university over a liberal arts college, especially for students who are interested in an in-depth CS experience. So, without further ado here are a few differences.
- RUs will have larger faculties and facilities. Because of this, the breadth of CS topics will be wider, and within any given topic, more depth will be available. Students will have the ability to take classes held by leading CS professors and, if they are ready, they can take graduate level classes.
- More research is conducted at RUs (by definition). Because of this, students will be exposed to more leading edge concepts through either classes or seminars. Additionally, since research is conducted in all departments, students will have access to cross-disciplinary CS applications. RU students also have access to more summer research internships even as freshmen.
- RUs foster a more vibrant CS culture. Undergraduate students, graduate students, PhD candidates, tenured professors, adjunct professors, VCs, and private industry all combine in an RU presenting countless opportunities to establish networks that further educational opportunities, internships, employment, or start-ups.
I will be the first to say that RUs are not for everyone. For some students, the liberal arts college experience is the driving force, and to them I’d say - research the curriculum and look for LACs that provide more faculty and choice, and opportunities for research. In short, if you think a LAC is best for you choose the LAC that most closely approximates a research university.
@Rivet2000 wrote
None of which would appear from the outside to have any impact on the employability of graduates of one over the other.
^^That will be up to the employer…
Or, look for research universities that most closely approximate some of the features you see in the best LACs. If not one of the Ivies+, then a somewhat less selective, small private RU (such as Brandeis or Rochester), or else a public honors college.
That’s the take away in all this. My view that it doesn’t matter whether you go to a LAC or research university is formed from having worked in the industry for over 30 years and seeing no preference among employers between the two categories of school. The people I see arguing the other side seem to be people with no demonstrable indication of professional software development experience, so their views are based more on assumption than experience.
I went to a large research university (Ohio State) with over 50,000 students my freshman year and didn’t do well because the classes were so large and impersonal. I had multiple classes where I was sitting in a big lecture hall with well over 400 other kids. If we had a question outside of lecture, the protocol was to ask a graduate teaching assistant first. A lot of those TAs were terrible at teaching, partly because many of them could barely speak English. (BTW - Just because someone has a PhD and/or is great at research doesn’t mean they know how to teach. Professors don’t get lessons in effective teaching.)
I transferred to a smaller state flagship (University of Alaska Fairbanks) of 3000 students, where my largest class was about 60 people, and it made all the difference in the world. All my professors knew my name and it was a much better learning environment for me. That’s not to say my experience applies to everyone else, but it does convince me that not everyone does better in a large, research university just because it has lots of professors and lots of classes. Bigger doesn’t always mean better.
^^ My experience also 30+ years (as is my wife’s), and from an employment perspective totally opposite of yours. Yes, some students need the smaller LAC experience to blossom. Other students thrive with the options at RU. Employers will look at qualifications. Make sure yours are the best they can be. I’ve hired many grads from MIT, CMU, and Stanford, UT Austin, and HMU. I can’t remember any from a LAC. That may be my loss, but qualifications matter.
@Rivet2000 , I can probably count the number of LAC grads I’ve worked with on my 24 toes and fingers, but they’ve always been indistinguishable from anyone else, including those from the schools you mentioned. It sounds like you’ve never given anyone from a LAC a chance, so you have no actual experience judging their abilities.
@simba9 That’s why I said it might be my loss, however, all resumes are filtered by HR before they hit my desk. I provide HR with my desired qualifications and keywords - they send me candidates.
I still believe that the primary value proposition of LACs is small class size. Some students need that. However, when it comes to the RU value propositions that I listed in #162 , the LACs simply don’t compare. If my best friend were to come up to me and ask where his high-stat daughter should go to get the very best possible education in computer science, I would recommend a research university, and I would use the same points as in #162 to show why.
In practice, many candidates and hires come from schools that are neither LACs nor universities with high research activity (e.g. the CSU system in California, equivalent public universities in other states, and some private universities).
The choice of highly selective LACs and research universities that most posters in this thread focus on is not very relevant to the majority of college students who may be looking more at the nearby regional public university because they cannot get admitted to the highly selective schools, and may not be able to afford to go anywhere else beyond commuting range.
@ucbalumnus , I agree that plenty of programmers come from schools like the CSUs, directional universities, and privates. In fact, that’s where most programmers come from. They’re indistinguishable from those who graduated from LACs or those with high research activity. That’s another reason I don’t think it matters that much where you went to school.
My advice would be to look for fit and a school with a particular CS program or specialty she liked. If that’s a big, research university - great. If it’s to be found in a smaller school more focused on teaching than research - great.
I view the items listed in #162 to be secondary, peripheral issues, on a level with whether the food in the dorms suits your tastes, or whether the school has a good alumni network.
@ucbalumnus I believe you are absolutely correct in that the majority of college students"… may be looking more at the nearby regional public university because they cannot get admitted to the highly selective schools…" but as you know CC is a different animal and a great deal more than the norm ARE looking at the highly selective schools. JMO
@simba9 Aside from your assertion that you don’t think those points matter, you have not made the case for why a LAC provides better CS academic opportunities. I, on the other hand, have listed just a few points as to why RUs offer better opportunities.
So, let’s let the talented high school graduates make their decisions. Those who have the academic chops to choose from the best school options usually make the right decision.
^Further evidence that people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.
@Rivet2000 , even you have acknowledged that LACs are better academic environments for some people. Now you seem to be refuting that.
My point has never been that LACs always provide better academic opportunities. It’s been that some students will learn more in an academic environment provided by LACs and smaller schools, while others do better in an academic environment provided by larger, research universities. And unlike you, I’ve been able to work alongside people from LACs and large, research universities and compare their technical skills. What I’ve learned is that you can’t tell where someone went to school, or what kind of school they went to, from their on-the-job performance and abilities.
I would take a very close look at Harvey Mudd, actually.
Regarding which schools require or offer senior theses and comps, that’s pretty easy to find on web sites. Amherst for instance requires oral comps for all CS majors, a thesis for honors designation.
I looked at CMU, Berkeley and UIUC major reqs and do not see either one offered or required for undergrad majors (may have missed if so someone will enlighten me I’m sure). Stanford has a capstone project requirement or thesis for honors.
At UCB, most or all departments offer an honors thesis option to undergraduate majors. Usually, this is denoted by the course number H195 or H196 in the department.
Maybe not, then, @ucbalumnus - I don’t see one. Don’t see a capstone/comprehensive either.
http://guide.berkeley.edu/undergraduate/degree-programs/computer-science/#majorrequirementstext
It is an option (part of the honors program), not a requirement.
http://guide.berkeley.edu/courses/compsci/ (H196A, H196B)
https://eecs.berkeley.edu/resources/undergrads/honors