What's the point of getting into the best?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>This maybe a rant, but I've been pondering lately about this question: What's the point of getting into the top ranked University ? </p>

<p>Then I came up with some quick answers:
- to get more chances to work in great companies
- to meet and network with smart, passionate people
- to network with great faculties/profs
- more opportunities to do research, etc</p>

<p>I guess for me and most people, reason #1 would be the most common reason to justify going into good schools. Reason #2,#3,#4 could be for personal satisfaction but also for economic gain in the future (if you want to do a start up or something else) </p>

<p>But then it came up to me, then what's the point of working in great companies? </p>

<p>1.) To make more money?
2.) To be satisfied with your work? have pride in creating some great stuff that people will use?</p>

<p>for #1, I better put this into my personal context. I'm studying Comp Sci at Stanford. Last summer I interned at Google as a software engineering intern. </p>

<p>I assume that Stanford would be considered top ranked univ for CS (or maybe MIT or berkeley or CMU but let's put that aside) and a lot of people wants to work for Google (or maybe not but whatever). Anyway, let's just assume that Google is where most CS students want to work after graduation. You can argue it'd be lockheed martin, IBM, Apple, Investment banking, I don't really care.</p>

<p>So I've been thinking what's the point of getting into Google after graduating from Stanford. If my end goal is just to work for Google, I don't really need to go to Stanford to do this. Google hires from univ all over the countries, I could go to some podunk state university and still get hired by Google (even though the chances are lower). </p>

<p>Also if money is what I am after, why do I even have to work for Google? Their salary don't differ that much vs working in other companies. Let's say Google pays their fresh grad 100k (which I kinda doubt), maybe Yahoo also pays 100k, or maybe microsoft pays for 110k, or maybe less like 90k. Does it really matter that we have to work that hard to get hired by these companies? </p>

<p>Let's say you need to make an effort 10x to get into Google and get paid about 100k. I could have made effort 5x and still get hired in some other companies that pays maybe 90k (not that much difference in money). </p>

<p>Maybe company culture matters, or does it? Most tech companies have the same culture, usually they have game room (Microsoft does) and free drinks, (ok maybe not free food) but seriously, how much money do you save by eating at Google cafetaria? probably like $10-20/day * 5 days/week * 4 weeks = $200-400? And you only have like 15-20 minutes to eat lunch and then it's time to get back to work... In other similar companies you can also take a break to play ping pong, pool, video games provided that you finish your project. So what's the point into getting into Google? prestige maybe?</p>

<p>Now for reason #2, What's the point in working to get your project be used by many people? Of course it's cool to tell your friends, I am working at this feature of Gmail, or Google Map. But what we're working for as an employee number 16000 ish is just a small part of the bigger picture. I once saw a presentation of Chrome (new google browser) that lasted for 15 minutes. On one of the slides there was a credit section and inside it there were about a hundred names written in fonts so tiny so it will fit the whole page. These are the names of the people who're working on Chrome. Basically the presenters just said thanks for all these folks and skip to the next slides. I was like... "wow so we as engineers are that insignificant eh? I didn't even get the chance to read the whole list of names..." </p>

<p>Then I thought maybe that's what happens if you work in big companies. You start as Engineer 1, then couple of years later you become Engineer 2 and continue up until maybe Engineer 6 and then you retire. Maybe your salary starts at 100k and tops at 100-200k at most.. (not including stock options) So what's the point of even going to good school and good companies. Even my parents who doesn't have a college degree made more money than that just by setting up shops/restaurants and other family businesses. As a side note, some people at wall street who just plays with numbers and good at mingling with clients at fancy restaurants and play golfs on weekends get millions per year. I know life's unfair but that's just weird man...</p>

<p>So I propose a solution for my situation. Maybe there's a good reason for going to Stanford i.e. to work in small companies or start ups. Because at least in those type of companies, even if the pays is average or maybe none, you get the chance to be a big part of something that's new. But then again, I think start ups are overrated. Without any intention to demeaning anyone, I know several people who did not come from superb CS program got into start ups or small companies. So it seems the quality of start ups varies wildly. Then if I got into those kinds of startups, what's the point of going to Stanford? Like I said before I can just go to podunk state or screw up my Stanford GPA and still get hired by these companies. </p>

<p>So what does a degree from Stanford entails? as far as I'm concerned, I'm still me even after I graduate. I still realize that I'm not the best thing on earth, there's a bunch of people smarter than me that didn't go to college. I realize that I could still bomb a test or an interview and I can still become jobless after I graduate from Stanford. </p>

<p>I even think that luck matters more than Stanford degree. When you're interviewing and the interviewer asked something that you know really well, you could ace that interview and still get a job at a great company even though you're from some podunk state university. </p>

<p>If you're personable and charming, you could still make great connections with great people without having to go to Stanford. I guess being at Stanford means I'm only given more opportunities to do something but if the qualities inside me is lacking, I still won't be able to get those opportunities vs some other people who have better qualities but fewer opportunities... </p>

<p>Of course you can train your mind to solve a problem but that still won't increase your intelligent to the same level as a gifted child. Of course you can socialize with people in clubs, take speaking classes at Toastmaster or whatever but still some people are still inherently more charming, eloquent than you. And they can do it without trying due to looks, familial upbringing, their personalities, speaking talents, etc. So unless I can change my inherent qualities inside me (which I thought is kinda impossible since these are genetic traits) what's the point of going into good school?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Then I came up with some quick answers:
- to get more chances to work in great companies
- to meet and network with smart, passionate people
- to network with great faculties/profs
- more opportunities to do research, etc

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And, perhaps not exclusive from what you have already listed, a greater chance of getting into a top grad school. Of course that begs the question of what is the point of going to a top grad school, which I will answer below.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But then it came up to me, then what's the point of working in great companies?</p>

<p>1.) To make more money?
2.) To be satisfied with your work? have pride in creating some great stuff that people will use?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Also to meet more top-quality people and build your network. Working for a top company is then similar to going to a top school, except that you actually get paid. </p>

<p>Working for a top firm also gives you greater job flexibility in that you can transition from a top firm to a no-name firm far more easily than the reverse. But maybe that ultimately also translates into more money. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Maybe company culture matters, or does it? Most tech companies have the same culture, usually they have game room (Microsoft does) and free drinks, (ok maybe not free food) but seriously, how much money do you save by eating at Google cafetaria? probably like $10-20/day * 5 days/week * 4 weeks = $200-400? And you only have like 15-20 minutes to eat lunch and then it's time to get back to work... In other similar companies you can also take a break to play ping pong, pool, video games provided that you finish your project. So what's the point into getting into Google? prestige maybe?

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</p>

<p>Actually, here I am afraid I have to disagree: most tech firms do not have the same company culture. True, most high-end tech firms have the same culture. But, trust me, there are plenty of mediocre tech firms out there that do not have the kind of culture that is anything like what exists at the top firms. I've dealt with many of these firms. Not only do they not offer any of the perks that a firm like Google or Microsoft would offer, they would be appalled that you would even think to expect such a thing. </p>

<p>Personally, I find that this is an issue with people who are from top schools and who have only worked at top firms: they get spoiled because they think that every other firm out there is like that. The freedoms and culture that you take for granted at a top firm simply do not exist in most other firms. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Now for reason #2, What's the point in working to get your project be used by many people? Of course it's cool to tell your friends, I am working at this feature of Gmail, or Google Map. But what we're working for as an employee number 16000 ish is just a small part of the bigger picture. I once saw a presentation of Chrome (new google browser) that lasted for 15 minutes. On one of the slides there was a credit section and inside it there were about a hundred names written in fonts so tiny so it will fit the whole page. These are the names of the people who're working on Chrome. Basically the presenters just said thanks for all these folks and skip to the next slides. I was like... "wow so we as engineers are that insignificant eh? I didn't even get the chance to read the whole list of names..."

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<p>Yeah, but at least that's a whole lot better than being engineer #1000 on a project that nobody really cares about (including you). The truth of the matter is that, sadly, most engineers in the country do not ever get to work on cool projects that their friends can understand. </p>

<p>I'll give you an example from chemical engineering. I know a lot of guys who work in benzene-toluene-xylene (BTX) plants. Nobody outside of the chemical industry even knows what that it. They also don't have any direct uses, but are just intermediate products that are used to produce further industrial chemicals. The best that the benzene guys can say is that they are perhaps step 2 in the 7-10 steps that is necessary to make plastic, and heck, even plastic is not exactly the most exciting product in the world. So at least with Gmail or Chrome, you can actually point to what it is that you are doing and tell people "I do that" and have people immediately understand your job. The BTX guys can't even do that, because nobody actually buys BTX directly. Furthermore, the Chrome guys can take some personal pride in their work because they know that their work will be seen by millions of people around the world. So in that sense, you have a incentive driven from personal pride and ego to do a good job. But if the BTX guys don't do a good job, that just means that they end up producing the same chemical product, but at a lower yield. Or in the worst case scenario, they end up producing bad product in which case their customer will just buy from one of the other hundreds of BTX plants in the world. So, honestly, who cares? </p>

<p>{Now to be fair, some people probably like working in BTX plants or similar process engineering jobs. But I certainly don't, and I know many of those guys don't really like it either.} </p>

<p>
[quote]
Then I thought maybe that's what happens if you work in big companies. You start as Engineer 1, then couple of years later you become Engineer 2 and continue up until maybe Engineer 6 and then you retire. Maybe your salary starts at 100k and tops at 100-200k at most.. (not including stock options) So what's the point of even going to good school and good companies. Even my parents who doesn't have a college degree made more money than that just by setting up shops/restaurants and other family businesses.

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<p>Well, it should be pointed out that engineering salaries are actually very good, relative to what most Americans make. You say that your parents without college degrees make a lot of money, but I think that just speaks to how exceptional you and your family are, relative to the average American. The average American only dreams of making $100k a year. To paraphrase Thoreau, most Americans lead lives of quiet desperation. They're living purely hand-to-mouth, working in boring jobs for mediocre companies that they don't like just because they need to pay the bills. </p>

<p>Regarding entrepreneurship, anybody who has read my posts will note that I am a big fan of the concept, but I also agree that it is risky. If your parents can successfully earn high incomes by starting their own businesses, good for them, but it should be said that most people can't do that. 90+% of all new business ventures fail. So it sounds like you (or at least your parents) are in that fortunate 10%, and if that is the case, then sure, you (or your parents) don't really benefit from a college degree. But what about all those people who aren't in that 10%? </p>

<p>
[quote]
As a side note, some people at wall street who just plays with numbers and good at mingling with clients at fancy restaurants and play golfs on weekends get millions per year. I know life's unfair but that's just weird man...

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<p>Yeah, but who's more likely to get a chance to be that millionaire Wall Street cat, the guy coming out of Stanford or the guy coming out of SE Missouri State University? </p>

<p>That gets to the point I was making before: most Americans can never dream of having those kinds of opportunities. It's like saying that if you look like Brad Pitt, you could meet women like Gwyneth Paltrow, Jennifer Aniston and Angelina Jolie. The problem is, what if you, like most guys, don't look like Brad Pitt? </p>

<p>
[quote]
But then again, I think start ups are overrated. Without any intention to demeaning anyone, I know several people who did not come from superb CS program got into start ups or small companies. So it seems the quality of start ups varies wildly. Then if I got into those kinds of startups, what's the point of going to Stanford? Like I said before I can just go to podunk state or screw up my Stanford GPA and still get hired by these companies.

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<p>You said it yourself: the quality of startups does vary wildly. However, I do not think it is a coincidence that so many of the most successful tech startups of the last 20 years are connected to Stanford. There are thousands of colleges out there, the vast vast majority of whose alumni have not even founded even one highly successful tech startup. Yet Stanford alumni have produced many, and the Stanford tech entrepreneurship community has been so successful that an entire shelf of books has been written about it. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And they can do it without trying due to looks, familial upbringing, their personalities, speaking talents, etc. So unless I can change my inherent qualities inside me (which I thought is kinda impossible since these are genetic traits) what's the point of going into good school?

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</p>

<p>I think you just answered your own concerns right there. Sure, I agree that if you were born with innate advantages, i.e. come from a rich family, or you're extremely handsome, or you're a superstar athlete, you don't really need to go to a top school. Heck, you probably don't need to go to any school. If you're Kobe Bryant, then by all means, skip college to play basketball. </p>

<p>But what if you - like most people - weren't born with those advantages? What if you're not handsome, not rich, don't have innate talents, etc.? Then I would argue that a name brand degree would matter quite a bit. Does it guarantee you success? Of course not. But it does improve your odds. </p>

<p>Analyze the Stanford degree in terms of marketing and brand management. Companies spend billions of dollars to promote their brand names. Why do that? Because they know that a strong brand name means that they can charge higher prices than they could otherwise. Many people will buy Coca Cola just because it's Coca Cola.</p>

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<p>Very good answer there sakky...BTW, I tried PMing you but your PMs are full. So I hop you got my email.</p>

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<p>As an chemical engineer, I'd say working on plastics is much more fun than working on x application and z computer design.</p>

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<p>pearlygate, do you not get personal satisfaction from a job well done? Why should it matter if other people know you worked on Chrome or not? Shouldn't it be enough that you got to work on something you were interested in and hopefully enjoyed doing?</p>

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<p>I'm with RacinReaver on this. It should be more about personal satisfaction than anything else.</p>

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<p>One benefit of getting into the best is exactly that..your in the best. I'd feel pretty good about myself for being in the best. Also you've worked hard in school for 12 grades so it's kind of a reward. Also if it comes up in conversation you can be like yea I went to MIT or yea I went to SUNY Plattsburg. Others would be impressed with MIT. I mean who doesn't want to be able to say I going/went to MIT/Harvard/Princeton/etc.?</p>

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<p>Not everyone. I turned down MIT for grad school. (Granted, I turned it down for Illinois, but that may have been a mistake, anyhow.)</p>

<p>People do regard you in a sort of limelight, though. Illinois's the top civil engineering program, both for grad and undergrad, and structural engineering is, their words, the "crown jewel" of the civil engineering program. ("Best of the best, sir! With honors!") Being invited to be a research assistant to the department head was a flattering prospect, and the status that it represented kind of suckered me into accepting. Ultimately, I know there are other programs that would've been far better for me, and if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't go to Illinois.</p>

<p>When I was getting a job, though, I could pretty much write my own ticket. I sent out a ream of resumes and my phone rang every half hour during business hours for the next two weeks. I flew all over the country for interviews and everyone I interviewed with offered me a job. I was able to pit companies against one another and have them bid for me, and I got a great salary. I'm not sure how much of that was the school, and how much was that I actually negotiated... At any rate, I got my pick of companies along with a competitive salary.</p>

<p>At my current company, they like everything to look pretty clean and streamlined (they regulate pushpin colors, for crying out loud), but they still haven't said anything about the Rice and Illinois pennants that I have above my desk. In fact, the CIO points out my Illinois pennant every time he gives a tour to visitors. I get lighthearted crap from my colleagues ("You probably know the answer! You went to Illinois!").</p>

<p>So, it's a feather in the cap. Ultimately, though, I don't think it matters all that much. It didn't give me any better of an education than other programs probably would've. If my firm didn't let in any but the best grads, I'd be rather lonely... I'm the only Illinois grad, and there's only one Berkeley grad.</p>

<p>I think the main difference is that people tend to assume more often that I know what I'm talking about without making me prove I know my stuff first. It's not a big difference, though. If I did a lousy job, I'd blow any advantage that I gained from having gone to UIUC. If I hadn't gone to UIUC, I could probably make up whatever deficit there was pretty quickly by working hard and doing a good job.</p>

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<p>aibarr, I don't know about you, but if I graduated with a degree from engineering from UIUC I'd feel pretty darn proud of myself. The college of engineering there is one of the most respected across the world. I've heard that UIUC engineering school has a 3-day recruiting fair for engineering majors. But anyways, do you think that if you chose to go to graduate school at, let's say University of Nebraska, you would be a hot commodity for jobs? BTW, how many job offers did you receive?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Actually, here I am afraid I have to disagree: most tech firms do not have the same company culture. True, most high-end tech firms have the same culture.

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<p>I agree with Sakky, not all high tech firms have the same culture. For example Intel, is a high tech company, but it is a complete sweat shop. It's not a comparison to Google at all.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
aibarr, I don't know about you, but if I graduated with a degree from engineering from UIUC I'd feel pretty darn proud of myself.

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</p>

<p>No, don't get me wrong... I am proud. It just wasn't a great fit for me, and I knew that before I went. As a result, I kind of kicked myself when it became very apparent that it wasn't the right school for me.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But anyways, do you think that if you chose to go to graduate school at, let's say University of Nebraska, you would be a hot commodity for jobs?

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<p>Honestly, not sure. It's hard to tell, right? I have no idea what's chicken and what's egg... I got into Illinois because of who I am, and I don't think Illinois changed me drastically in the two years I was there. So, I think Illinois was a better endorsement of my skills, not because Illinois was so formative to my existence as an engineer, but because Illinois said, "Yeah, we accepted this gal and she got through our program okay," and because Illinois was respected and well-known-- I'm obviously not as famous as Illinois, so their endorsement helped. I'm not sure how superior their education was to other places, but in my experience, it wasn't spectacularly better than undergrad... I thought my undergrad education was better, actually.</p>

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[quote]
BTW, how many job offers did you receive?

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<p>Erm... I can remember at least nine written offers. Ten? Eleven? I went on about that many face-to-face interviews, at least. This was a couple years ago. There were a lot of inquiries that I didn't pursue. (If I can design skyscrapers in LA, I'm not going to pursue a gig supervising pipe manufacturing in Mason City, Iowa, even if they ask me nicely...)</p>

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<p>OP, why must you judge your worth based on your school or the job you get or what others think of you? Or relative to others in general?</p>

<p>If you look deeper at what you're saying... then I would argue what is the point of having the best job? Is it that you can make a lot of money? But then whats the point of that? Buying a lot of things? And so on...</p>

<p>All people are different but I'd probably not be satisfied by making a lot of money. The more I think about it the less I like the idea of a "job," a place where you get paid as if you're on a leash. So really whats the point of any of this?</p>

<p>If one stops thinking about money for a second, however, things become a lot clearer. Or atleast they do for me. If I like creating things (software, hardware, whatever) and I am getting an opportunity to be able to do this at a magnitude I won't be able to do it alone, then isn't it reasonable to like being an engineer? For me it definitely is.</p>

<p>And so it is for the quality of the school you go to. In engineering, it doesn't make a huge difference to your earning potential. But due to the people you meet, the quality of the ideas around you, and also the fact that you more easily get to work for better companies means that you will be able to realize your love for engineering to a greater extent. There is a point to that because that makes you happy.</p>

<p>The real issue is that no matter what way you slice it, having a job may not be the most satisfying thing to do no matter which school you graduate from. Quite honestly, I really don't care very much about the Google search engine, or the Facebook social networking application... why should I derive any pleasure by working on them? The key to happiness is not going to the best school but being able to do what you want to do. But going to a better school will most likely help you do this.</p>

<p>Ideally, I would become a professor... but my chances of doing this are vastly improved by going to a good school. Industry tends to care more for experience but better schools give you more opportunities to get this experience... so there really IS a point in going to a good school and ESPECIALLY in going to a top school like Stanford.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
As an chemical engineer, I'd say working on plastics is much more fun than working on x application and z computer design

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<p>Ha! Well, to each his own. But I would say it that even many chemical engineers don't really want to do plastics. For example, the polymer processing chemical engineering elective course at Berkeley has rather lukewarm demand from the students, but the biochemical engineering and semiconductor processing elective courses are always overflowing with students. The same seems to be true at MIT. The ChemE students at those schools simply don't seem to be interested in learning how to make plastics.</p>

<p>Now, granted, maybe that's just a coastal thing: it is probably true that plastics is held in higher regard at schools such as UTAustin or UDelaware that are near a large petrochemical industry. However, I would say that MIT and Berkeley are the highest ranked chemical engineering programs in the country, and so tend to draw the best ChemE students. When the best ChemE's would rather learn about the biotech and semiconductor industries rather than the plastics industry, that should tell you something.</p>

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<p>Plastics industry is so 60s, see the movie Graduate.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
pearlygate, do you not get personal satisfaction from a job well done? Why should it matter if other people know you worked on Chrome or not? Shouldn't it be enough that you got to work on something you were interested in and hopefully enjoyed doing?

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<p>Unfortunately, I only have time for a short reply. Not all tech (software) companies are alike, but there is a certain ethos in the Silicon Valley regarding the visibility of projects, entrepreneurial drive, etc:</p>

<p>Technical</a> Revenue: Why I work at Google
Technical</a> Revenue: Howto Pass a Silicon Valley Software Engineering Interview</p>

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<p>Hey, thanks for the replies.</p>

<p>
[quote]
pearlygate, do you not get personal satisfaction from a job well done? Why should it matter if other people know you worked on Chrome or not? Shouldn't it be enough that you got to work on something you were interested in and hopefully enjoyed doing?

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<p>Well, that's true. I guess I'm just naive for thinking I could be something great. I'm just an average person after all. If I can get a job great, if I can get a job that I'll love even better. </p>

<p>
[quote]
OP, why must you judge your worth based on your school or the job you get or what others think of you? Or relative to others in general?

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<p>Well, because most people in the society care about social status. People care about what house they live in, how much money they make, which country they can go during christmas break, what car they drive, how beautiful their spouse is. Call me shallow, but these things do matter (otherwise car industry, porn industry, fashion industry, even academic industry etc would be doomed to failure) Sure you can be indifferent from all these and basically saying "screw that, I found my own happiness" but I still haven't gotten into that phase yet. </p>

<p>Maybe after 5-10 years working in the industry and after I get past my prime age, I would settle down and just work as an average joe. :) I do like programming, they are fun, challenging. But I'm not so into it that I would spend my weekends coding stuff. I want some balance in life. In that sense I'm kinda lazy unlike most CS majors who built their own compiler for fun or debugging the new version of firefox just for the heck of it.
I like vacations, travelling, eating great food, enjoying life.. without money what can I do? I have to be realistic and get a job don't I? Getting a job that's cool and make lots of money would be nice to support this kind of lifestyle.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Unfortunately, I only have time for a short reply. Not all tech (software) companies are alike, but there is a certain ethos in the Silicon Valley regarding the visibility of projects, entrepreneurial drive, etc:</p>

<p>Technical Revenue: Why I work at Google
Technical Revenue: Howto Pass a Silicon Valley Software Engineering Interview

[/quote]
</p>

<p>that's a nice article you got there. Thx for sharing</p>