Whats the point of taking math?

Student Lounge College Life
41

@werq123‌

Did you really register on this site just to write a screed against math? Mind if I call you a crackpot?

Someone remarked earlier that illiteracy is frowned upon by society but innumeracy isn’t. It’s astounding to me how proud some people are about being “terrible at math.” When I hear stuff like this, I’m reminded of something my likable but ultimately intellectually featherweight nephew said, “Uncle ____, I don’t really like learning things.”

Math is interesting and elegant for the same reason poems are interesting and elegant. They both condense information using symbols or phrases as an abstraction. They also both require patience and effort. As Thomas Paine said, “What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.”

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I know that math is useful, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone in a profession bust out a pen and paper and start writing out math formulas and equations. Am I thinking of a different kind of math here?

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@sweetlacecharm‌ The same can be said for virtually all disciplines aside from purely vocational ones - how something is taught in a classroom environment doesn’t necessarily translate into its real world application.

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@sweetlacecharm‌
You are spoiled by computers and the ability to put all of the responsibility of working out equations on a specific software.

Before computers, you better believe people had to put pen to paper and work out equations, at least in the engineering professions.

Even nowadays we still need to know math because we still need to know what we are putting into the calculators/computers and how to interpret the data.

45

You may not bust out a pen and paper to solve equations, but I bet you don’t diagram sentences on the job either. That doesn’t mean that they are useless skills.

46

I don’t find myself busting out a pen and writing an essay about world history too often, and yet people don’t argue so ardently about how pointless it is to take history classes…although it is likely -even more- irrelevant to most careers than math.

I could live the rest of my life exactly as I am now without having written an essay comparing and contrasting the two French Revolutions and the different reasons leading to them. I’m a physics/math double major. The French Revolution is absolutely, without question, 100% unrelated to my field of study. The French Revolution is relevant to a history major…and so is math.

A lot of the courses that one takes in college are unrelated to their major. With my majors, there is very little relation with anything in the humanities or the social sciences, aside from a touch of philosophy. However, the point of college is not to train one for a job. That’s what a technical school is for. The point of college (in the United States) is to educate one in a broad number of fields, with a focus on one or two specific areas.

Math is hard. For many people, it is substantially harder than their other gen ed courses…and this is why people so frequently oppose the math requirements. Personally, I can’t relate to this mentality. I like to learn, and I like to be challenged by what I’m learning.

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@jimmyboy23: um no I did not grow up spoiled by computers. I was born in 1990. Computers back then have nothing on computers today.

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Eh, I’m always unsure about this comparison when people make it in these threads. In many careers, a cursory understanding of history is necessary to pick up on references/cultural differences (edit: I would’ve expanded on culture differences, as this is another strong argument for understanding why history is relevant to everyone, but I didn’t have space). If I have a meeting in Germany, I should know where Germany is. If I have to fly out to Germany and the client wants to grab lunch, and we wind up walking through Berlin, I should know the historical significance of the city. More than likely, the client won’t ask me when the Reichstag burnt down; but if we walk by the Reichstag building, and he makes a comment about how amazing Germany is for doing the reparations, I don’t want to have to spend time on Google to see what he means. That’s something I should know.

In consulting, law, and most government work you see these types of things every day. History is in everyday conversation; math, not so much.

I’m not as anti-intellectual as others in this thread, but I see college as preparation for a broad field. If I want to go into the humanities, there is no reason for me to take extra math in addition to what I did in high school (excl. research). More specifically, if I want to go into law or consulting (excl. technological consulting), I will never use advanced mathematics. Yes, a client won’t ask me to bust out the pen and paper to solve an integral. That’s not my job. But more relevant, a client won’t mention math in everyday conversation. We might talk about the formation of calculus if Oxford comes up, but, again, that’s history. I can’t see any situation in which knowledge more advanced than a cursory understanding of mathematics will come up in a conversation. The only time would be to understand that marginal cost is the derivative of a cost function, but most college grads could intuitively see that without any understanding of calculus. (“Marginal cost is the cost at x number of goods for every x+1 number of goods! That’s calculus?”)

Those who want to go into engineering, on the other hand, might need that history background so they can communicate with clients in everyday conversation. Gen eds exist for STEM majors. They have specialized skills (through their education in math and science), but need some humanities experience to carry on conversation. Conversely, those looking to go into a field where math past basic arithmetic is seemingly useless don’t need any more math courses. At least, I don’t understand why they would. What they learn in those courses will never be of use to them because they won’t use it in their speciality (their vocation) and it won’t come up in casual conversation.

You can make the argument that it contributes to a better understanding of the world–but so what? Not everyone needs to understand the world. This may be where I come off as anti-intellectual, but not everyone has some innate, burning desire to understand life through mathematics and physics and chemistry. They’re fine reading a brief written by someone who specializes in those fields whenever they need to. But they’re not specializing in the field, they’re never required to understand mathematics for their job, and whenever they need more than a cursory understanding they reach out to a specialist who can explain mathematics’ relevance to the situation. “But they wouldn’t have to hire the specialist if they just took calculus!” More than likely, they’ll need the expert’s opinion regardless of how many derivatives they took their freshman year of undergrad. “But they’ll need to understand what the expert’s saying!” Again, one or two courses can’t do that. The expert should be able to explain the concepts relevant for their specific job, which is possible to understand without any advanced mathematical knowledge.

I agree with @preamble1776’s assertion that a better understanding of mathematics leads to a better understanding of logic, but then why isn’t logic an alternative to math in most universities? A course in logic has more benefit to a humanities major then ten in mathematics.

More than likely, it will be. But it’s still good to know. If you’re talking to someone from Paris, and they tell you about when they went to the Bastille, do you really want to be the guy/gal who doesn’t know what that is? Very few people will talk about the integrals they did last night, but these types of things come up very frequently in casual conversation. Last week, some of my friends went to London. They showed me pictures of the Buckingham Palace, Big Ben, Westminster, 10 Downing St., etc. It was annoying when one of my friends viewing the pictures with us kept asking “And what’s that? And what’s that? And what’s that?” A cursory understanding of history will tell you enough to know all of those things.

I’ve never had a friend show me pictures of the integrals they were working on and say “Oh! Look what I did here!” and I think that showing vacation photos is more commonplace than the latter.

Edit:
Cultural differences: Why the French don’t fight, why we shouldn’t put our left hand forward if we have a meeting in Abu Dubai or you’re an engineer meeting with an Islamic engineer from Pakistan, etc. etc.

Edit edit:
Almost everyone else ITT who’s taken this side had horrible arguments. Please don’t lump this one in with them.

Also, to give some context, this is coming from a guy who might take up to dif eq for Economics. I know how valuable mathematics can be. It’s just that so many people don’t need it, that is shouldn’t really be a requirement. It has no place in casual conversation, and the only ones who actually do need it are specialists.

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Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing that any general education courses are irrelevant. I’ve taken most of my gen ed courses already, and I’ve loved all of them. I’ve never seen college as a career placement service in the sense that some do. I see it as education, and I enjoy learning about basically everything that comes my way. I took a Western Civilization course last summer, and it left me wishing that I could take more history. I’ve felt the same way about anthropology, sociology, philosophy, and several other subjects. Unfortunately we only get to go in depth with one or two fields in college. Many of my gen ed courses have created genuine interest in their respective fields. And that’s really the point. One will never know if they’re interested in a field if they are never exposed to it at all.

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" You show me typical occupations, professions or trades that use math on a regular basis to the extent of what is taught in college and I’ll show you a rainbow of diamonds"

The purpose of math especially at high school level/lower division college is to nurture problem solving skills that should be useful to anyone throughout all aspects of their life. Another way of saying it is that life requires you to solve problems with the tools you have. In algebra, you’re given a problem x + 3 = 8. (Putting aside previously memorized math (adding, subtracting etc), you’re asked to solve for x. There’s a rule that says what you do to one side of equation you do to other. Here, subtracting 3 from both sides solves your problem. High school level/lower division college then just keeps introducing new rules/tools and asking you to use these new rules/tools you have to solve the increasingly difficult problems.

A stay at home parent has a problem (dinner ready for 3 kids/SO at 6). Parent uses tools available (food, pots, utensils, recipes etc), follows them in sequence, and everyone eats at 6. A surgeon has to remove appendix, uses what tools are available (xrays, CT, scalpel, retractors, sutures etc) in order and patient goes home. Are things always cut and dried, no. Sometimes parent/surgeon are faced with variations (missing ingredients, appendix turns out to be partial bowel removal, etc). An attorney might be faced with new facts (relevant/not relevant?)… Thanks to vague tax laws, a CPA might have to figure out what line/form something goes on. And on and on life goes, people facing life’s problems and having to come up with solutions. What do they do, give up? No. They work their way through the problems to a solution using the rules/tools that are available, just like in math. That’s what math does. It begins to move kids away from pure memorization to problem-solving, aka thinking.
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@Vctory‌
You really overestimate the need of history and humanities knowledge for communication skills. In everyday conversation and even with clients, there is really very little discussion about history or politics or anything like that. The only communication skills you need are how to exchange pleasantries and how to make small talk. Then the biggest communication issue is dumbing down the technical jargon (goes for every field including Law, Politics, and Business). These are the only elements that are necessary for a good conversation. Most people would rather talk about what’s going on in their lives rather than history. If someone wants to learn topics for conversation they should take a class in sports, people will talk about those all day.

You also overestimate the significance of cultural knowledge. Most cultural knowledge you will ever need is on google and you can research before going into the meeting what is acceptable and what is insulting. You also say that it is necessary to know the cultures of a country, because the people you are talking to will assume that you are knowledgeable. In reality nobody expects someone from another culture to know everything about their own culture and most would probably be very happy to explain their culture to a visitor. You should research the country and know how to speak some common phrases and know what might insult someone, but you don’t need to know the history of a building even if it does come up in conversation.

I also disagree that gen eds are for STEM majors. At my school at least there are just as many STEM gen eds as there are humanities gen eds. They only ensure a well-rounded education. Cursory knowledge of both basic history and basic math is desirable.

It’s true that nobody needs to specialize to the extent of differential equations for a humanities major, but the same can be said for STEM majors not having to take a course in African Medieval History. Basic algebra and statistics on the other hand are useful to everyone just like basic American history.

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@jimmyboy23 Agreed on almost everything. I purposefully overstated the need of required history classes to make this point: there should be no required classes. It’s the same as math. Cursory knowledge is necessary, but that should be taught in high school; and what isn’t taught then can be learned with a Google search.

It’s not needed for communication or the day-to-day, only specialization–so why do we have these required, useless classes? If there’s no time someone in law or consulting will use past basic algebra or statistics, then why force them to study calculus? Likewise, why force the engineer to study anything past basic American history? The fundamentals are for high school educators to get at, not for the college students paying for their credits.

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Math is important to all majors, but only real life math. A lot of math you learn in college and high school is theoretical and never used in real life. Accounting, chemistry, physics, finance all uses math in real life situations and are useful, however precalculus, calculus and so forth has too much theory, worthless functions, and equations. I am an architecture major and I am taking precalculus and half of the trigonometry we learn is worthless in real life and only theoretical. Like imaginary numbers in algebra, which is pointless. I even know engineer students who barely passed or failed calculus 2 because there was so much theory and nonsense. Colleges should accept accounting and physics as math credit because that is actually useful in life. Professors should teach trig and calculus related to real life problems and not that theoretical nonsense, unless you are a math major and you like theoretical math, but the rest of us don’t.

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The term “imaginary number” is just a historical accident and makes them sound way more mystical than they are. Complex numbers essentially represent rotations, and you need them to solve differential equations that are used in many applications.

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That there is a general education requirement doesn’t prove their importance. Also, I know a lot of you who are advocating general education requirements would not be upset if they disappeared.

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I’ve learned a lot within my courses in history, anthropology, art history/analysis, philosophy, etc. I love knowing these things, because they are a part of my body of knowledge…which is the point of an education. Of course it’s very beneficial to be aware of history and culture and such. These are the types of things that people often talk about. Many people spend their time discussing little but pop culture and current topics, but the best discussions and debates are often about one of the myriad topics that one covers in a gen ed core. And there are very few things that are more culturally relevant than mathematics. Mathematics was one of, if not THE greatest driving force behind the development of modern culture. People so often seem to just not see the value in it. I really find it so hard to understand the anti-intellectualism that is represented by the widespread dislike of math.

People don’t even understand how often they use the skills that they learned in math classes. They say “I haven’t solved a quadratic equation since high school!” and think that it means they haven’t used math at all. Any time one sees any kind of graphic representation of data they are using skills gained from math classes to analyze them. Whether it’s an exponential growth of the human population, changes in the price of gas, price of health insurance, interest rates, a price comparison of two products, the cleaning power of Product A versus the cleaning power of Product B…the list just goes on. Many people take out student loans, car loans, home loans, etc. Isn’t it worthwhile to understand how interest rates work and how they accumulate over time? I’m not suggesting that one should sit down and mathematically calculate the differences between different interest rates, but having a basic understanding of how interest rates and different types of compounding and such result in different patterns of growth is incredibly beneficial. Similarly, understanding how interest works can help you get more money in savings accounts and future investments. People sometimes seem to think that there’s no value in mathematics since they haven’t actually done all of the calculations in years…but they’re still using and benefiting from the intuition that they gained in those classes…or at least they will if they took the time to actually gain them.

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This is a freaking 9 year old thread.

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You’re absolutely right, but these skills are all taught in high school.