What's the Policy about Affirmative Action Threads?

College Confidential Community
21

The benefit of a merged thread is to highlight how repetitive the entire AA debate has been on College Confidential. I started participating in such threads FIVE years ago, and the discussions are as similar and void of any merit today as they were then. Today, the discussions all amount to poorly veiled rants and abject expressions of racism or misguided entitlement.

Affirmative Action should be an important subject, but in the manner it is approached and discussed on College Confidential, it is not a subject that deserves a separate platform in any way, shape, or form.

A forum or sub-forum is a colossal waste of space.

22

Merging all the threads into one clears up the forums and lets those who aren’t interested in discussing affirmative action avoid them. Though I imagine that just about every question that could possibly be asked about affirmative action is answered in that giant FAQ, its sheer size makes it both unwieldy and inconvenient for those who are trying to find an answer to a question that has likely been answered.

I believe it is a good idea to have a subforum dedicated to affirmative action. Doing so also reduces clutter in the other forums and still allows those who don’t want to talk about it to not be bothered by it. I think the title Hunt suggested is a good one because it encompasses the full range of this topic.

23

Not surprising. One’s stance on affirmative action is determined by the answer to one question, “Do you believe it is ever right to discriminate based on race?” We can all agree that segregation, discrimination against certain races, is evil. What we don’t agree on is whether it’s OK to discriminate in favor of certain races. That is why the discussions are “as similar and void of any merit today as they were then.”

Since we’re always going to have these discussions, I think it is beneficial to have a subforum devoted completely to this issue. That way, people who are tired of explaining the same thing over and over again don’t have to try to suppress the temptation to do so every time they see a thread like, “Am I a URM?”

24

I third Hunt’s suggestion. I agree with xiggi’s reasoning, but come to the opposite conclusion: Because of the manner it is approached and discussed on CC, it deserves isolation in a subforum, which will save space in the other forums.

25

College applicants would benefit from a dedicated forum for Affirmative Action discussions. One of the benefits of individual threads within a forum is that statistics (Last Post, Replies, Views) are associated with the thread titles. This gives readers an indication as to the level of interest a given topic has. The forum could host threads like the following:

[ul]
[<em>]Just the Facts: Public Institutions’ policies on utilizing applicant self-assessment responses…discussions on state and federal court decisions
[</em>]Just the Facts: Private Institution X’s policy on utilizing applicant self-assessment responses
[<em>]The case for not self-assessing
[</em>]If an individual wants to be judged on the merits, his/her personal responsibility in support of a true meritocracy
[li]Is ‘Race’ a social or biological concept?[/li][/ul]

26

No, Fabrizio, that is not the question to ask, because we all know and agree what the answer should be.

A better question, and the same that has remained blatantly unanswered since the day started is pretty basic: where is the CONCLUSIVE evidence of the discrimination that fuels the unabated stream of rants and complaints. Here we are not looking at manipulated evidence such as Golden’s California’s case nor at the pseudo-science published by Espenschade and Chung.

If evidence is unavailable, then there is a need for advocacy. And the platform for advocacy is not a site such as College Confidential.

Contrary to the self-serving position often repeated here, favoring certain races or certain SES does not necessarily amount to discrimination of the non-favored. That is why discrimination is easy to claim and hard to demonstrate. Hurling the same mythical allegations for another five years will not bring solutions to a problem that only exists in the mind of the entitled.

Your question “Do you believe it is ever right to discriminate based on race?” can only be answered with a resounding NO! Unfortunately, you first need to establish discrimination and probably erase a few decades of the reverse discrimination that helped created the model minority and elevate it to the rank of ORM.

27

Vacillating between the two polar opposites is … really easy. I completely understand your conclusion.

28

I’m enjoying the discussion here. Thanks to everyone who is participating. Management gets to make the call. I’m thinking ahead how to implement each of the several suggestions that have been made.

29

I agree with Hunt’s suggestion and I would rather see a subforum on “Special Admissions Categories (Underrepresented Minorities, Legacies, Athletes, and Development Cases)” and there does not need to be a separate forum to discuss affirmative action.

30

This really depends on your definition of discrimination. To me discrimination in the context of colleges admissions occurs when, ceteris paribus, members of certain racial groups face lower standards than members of other groups. So by my definition, favoring one group necessarily means discriminating against other groups. Sorry if I’m getting off topic–I don’t want to start a debate about the merits of AA in this thread. My point is simply that an FAQ cannot do this complex issue justice.

31

And here we go…time to move the thread!(smile)

32

There are many topics that come up again and again, and the discussion is often annoyingly repetitive, such as “Does it really matter where you go to undergrad?” The reason these come up again and again is that they are on people’s minds.

33

I strongly disagree with the creation of an Affirmative Action sub forum.

There is simply not enough to say on the subject. We have already witnessed how 99% of all threads turn into the same thing and virtually every point has been covered in the self-identification thread.

The issue is heated on this forum and most conclusions are based on personal values.

A thread should only be created if doing so would bring valuable information that would be otherwise hard to find. This is not the case with the AA threads. To create an AA sub-forum simply encourages the silly debates which I have observed to has died down on CC with the new policy of merging them into one thread.

I do think that cleaning up the self-identification thread and keeping it as a sticky and labeling (post affirmative action here) would alleviate all of the repetition problems without encouraging often destructive non-debates lacking any support.

However Affirmative Action doesn’t merit its own subforum, if it did I would be the first to advocate on its behalf as a fervent pro-AA debater.

34

After a fair amount of consideration, I’m weighing in with Tyler on this one. Here are my reasons:

AA continues to be mostly, on CC anyway, a lightning rod issue – with way less light than heat, on the board as a whole. The phrase excites & ignites, with more emotion in the argument, less reason, less actual helpful research, & often with very little understanding of history – including the reasons for AA’s beginnings (whatever one thinks of those reasons), the actual policies & practices of colleges which employ it, & why they do so (again, irrespective of agreement with that), & definitely with very little contextual understanding of the reach of the U.S. constitution & the scope/limits/definition of civil rights.

This is to contrast the topic with other forums & subforums, such as LD, such as college majors, etc. The latter do exist mainly to share information & offer advice, rather than to argue & condemn. AA threads often start (or begin as detour posts in the middle of other threads) with misinformation at the starting gate. Then we have student upon student debating whether an inaccurately stated policy (!) is good or bad, followed by page after page of name-calling & character assassination of either a contrary opinion OR a poster who dares to correct misinformation. It seems to me this is contrary to the purpose of a true discussion board such as CC, which attempts to be a constructive communication site.

In addition, AA is an admissions topic, and thus i.m.o. belongs primarily in the Admissions forum (as opposed to where we’re talking about it now). People can argue about just how important factor it supposedly is in admissions, and just how much supposedly any single candidate is affected by it – more than by other factors of diversity, more than the quality of an application, more than an academic & e.c. record – but, whether big or small, it’s a potential admissions question.

Even though I’ve stated recently a weariness to discuss it further, I understand that some will want to, and that doesn’t bother me. I don’t see a need either to restrict its location or to highlight it. I like that other posters engage in a kind of regulation of the volume by referring newer posters to the search feature. That’s another reason why I would not like it redirected to a special forum or subforum. I think new posters tend to go to Admissions first. (Even as a parent, I think I did.) Thus they would tend to search in Admissions first for AA discussions, if they wanted that topic.

I don’t know about FAQ’s or about merging the ‘race uknown’ thread. The one thing I’ll say that I did like about an AA discussion a couple of years ago is that some of those threads (may have been also in Ivy League, because some flowed out of Princeton debates, etc.) contained some hard information from a Source (AdOfficer). She/he stated some reasons, stated some history, explained how the process worked, had some facts & figures which did bring light into the discussion. I’d like for others to be able to find such actual information in the future, as opposed to wild speculation feeding the debate.

And no, I would not prefer a decision which places burdens on volunteer moderators, whatever the ultimate decision is.

35

Ahhh, thank you, xiggi-I couldn’t agree more.

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College Confidential exists mainly for the benefit of newcomers who are unaware of the long history and repetitive nature of postings on some subjects; for them these complaints are irrelevant. For newcomers, the very existence of a subforum “Special Admissions Categories” can serve to make them aware that such categories exist, with the rants illustrating their sometimes controversial nature.

37

I agree with vossron that the litmus test should be how this affects new members. As it stands, AA discussion is limited almost entirely to the “Race Unknown” FAQ. Wading through this thread is a burdensome task for new members because the topics are not organized in any logical fashion, and the thread is so long. As epiphany pointed out, AA is an admissions issue, so the new subforum should be placed within the College Admissions forum. I am unconvinced by those who raise moderator concerns; mods currently spend a great deal of time merging AA threads with the FAQ. If a subforum were created, the only thing that would change is where these threads would be moved.

Many posters have complained that the AA discussion is repetitive and that the quality of discussion is at times low. In essence, the FAQ is used as a tool to limit discussion of the issue. For example Tyler09 writes:

Citing this as a reason to not have a subforum makes me uncomfortable. It amounts to the CC admins taking the editorial position that AA is an issue unworthy of further discussion. In addition, it implies that new members are somehow less deserving of a chance to offer their thoughts simply because they joined CC later.

I believe that the primary purpose of CC should be to provide a means for new members to learn about the college process and to give them a chance to discuss their own opinions on issues related to college admissions. Creating an AA (or Special Admissions Categories) subforum would further this goal while allowing the rest of us to steer clear of the discussion if we so choose.

38

“Citing this as a reason to not have a subforum makes me uncomfortable. It amounts to the CC admins taking the editorial position that AA is an issue unworthy of further discussion. In addition, it implies that new members are somehow less deserving of a chance to offer their thoughts simply because they joined CC later.”

I agree. And for the --haha-- “uninitiated,” it would be helpful if the subforum is so titled as to include the term AA in the Special Categories designation. Perhaps an OP by a mod could also indicate that the thread is a repository of both passionate debate & dispassionate information, for those wanting both/either. I’m thinking that there has also been helpful info supplied by those who understand the inner workings of athletic recruitment, etc.

39

I believe that the AA forum would be great. So frequently I see users starting threads about it. Though the Race: Unknown thing is a good/easy solution, it fits topics associated with Unknown race better than general Affirmative Action. As others mentioned, I’m a bit concerned that this will be a heated subforum. BUT, I think that it will be easier to keep track of the threads if they’re grouped into one subforum regarding ALL different types of Affirmative Action questions. Currently, the jumbo thread seems like overkill as it just makes it more difficult for existing users to post as new users interject with questions …as existing ones bash and possibly ignore the new user’s questions. This way, new users can easily have their questions seen and answered. And, those willing to debate out this can debate without overbearing a single thread. I don’t believe it needs to be more specific considering that AA is generally specific enough as it is…

40

tokenadult,
The recent thread opened in Admissions, dubiously titled ‘Ah Honest Discussion’ (not dubious by the OP, just dubious by some of the ensuing replies), is an example of what I meant by Wouldn’t It Be Nice to have some “Post-It” links in an AA subforum in Admissions, that direct interested new/old posters to hard info on this topic, on CC, such as contributions by college reps. On this new thread we’re already off on debates which stem from wildly erroneous understandings of the mechanics of AA.