What's up with pro-lifers who support the death penalty

<p>Robert E. Lee, your arguments seriously disgust me. "Of course there will be certain instances where this will happen. But I certainly feel safer knowing that a malicious murderer is off the streets for good. Capital punishment would greatly reduce the strain that is put upon our jails here in the US. That means more money in your pocket when it comes to paying your taxes."</p>

<p>So of course, we can kill innocent people just to save some pocket change. And the fact that we also kill some guilty people makes it all OK. Plus we get money - yay, we'll just kill an innocent man (just because he's poor and can't afford better representation) so I pay less taxes! The world is all sunshine and smiles now! </p>

<p>Doesn't matter to me that killing innocent people is exactly the crime people are on death row for! We're the government, so that makes it all OK...</p>

<p>Those malicious murders walk the streets every day. They have committed a crime of equal, if not greater, heinousness. The only difference between them and their executed counterparts is that they have more cash in their pockets. </p>

<p>A better justice system would reduce the strain on our jails. Not holding people indefinitely in jails FOR NO REASON AT ALL (not even bringing them to court to tell them what they did wrong, as is required by the constitution) would reduce the strain on our jails.</p>

<p>I mean, why should we care about women and children in war? They're just, like, expendable life. I mean, if we can get rid of the opposing army, it's all OK right? (This is, by the way, exactly what terrorist groups like Hamas and Al-Qaeda are doing - targeting the innocent in their campaign against US forces.) I mean, what does it mean to me if we bomb a village and lots of innocent women and children and men die but, hey, we got the captain. This is the classic case of the ends justifies the means. And I think maybe even Bush would disagree with Machiavelli on that one.</p>

<p>Placing a dollar value on a human life is disgusting.</p>

<hr>

<p>I don't care if it's murder, if it's a fetus, an embryo or a baby. I don't care if it's alive or dead. The only thing that matters is that MAKING ABORTION ILLEGAL WILL NOT SAVE THAT BABY'S LIFE and will endanger further the mother's life. </p>

<p>On balance, more people die. That's it - if you care about "life," interestingly enough, then you should keep abortion legal and under regulation.</p>

<p>"My firearm will not just spontaneously jump up off a table and kill somebody accidently, espescially if I am safe and responsible and keep it locked, etc. And, not everybody has small children that they allow to play with such things."</p>

<p>Fine, I'll grant that you're responsible. How do you account for all the other people in America? How do you account for the fact that felons can buy guns, people that have a clear track record of not being "responsible." Yeah, "not everybody has small children that they allow to play with such things," but some incredibly dumb people do and don't get child locks and their kids die. So, do firearms have the potential to harm/adversely affect others? The clear answer is YES. Get back to me when you can show me some clear analysis as to how a woman getting an abortion can affect any other person in society.</p>

<p>"On the other hand, your abortion WILL result in the termination of a fetus. Whose rights we may argue about, but I believe it does have them."</p>

<p>This goes back to the neverending is it life debate. The only thing I have to say is that your defense of the fetus will not save its life.</p>

<p>"What makes you think that a fetus is part of your body? For it to be part of your body, I think it would have to share the same DNA as you, which it does not. It may be inside of your body...."</p>

<p>Are you implying the government owns the woman's body? Yeah, and it's dependent on MY body to survive. The placenta has my DNA, and the umbilical cord is my DNA; without these the "fetus" cannot survive. So yeah, at the point that it depends on me for survival, it is a part of my body. Even being inside of my body makes it a part of me. </p>

<p>Are you implying that if I get a liver transplant, that liver (w/ someone else's DNA, mind you) is not "part of me" but is just "inside me"?</p>

<p>"And why shouldn't I be able to hire/fire who I want without any justification? Freedom of contract is SUCH a fundamental right...I'm not even going to expend the effort right now to defend it, because if you can't desire liberties like this in general, I'm really not interested in your opnions."</p>

<p>And I'm not really interested in the opinions of someone who thinks they can refuse to hire a black guy because he thinks "negros" are an inferior race.</p>

<p>ebonytear: As repulsive as that belief is, being able to choose who you hire and fire is a fundamental freedom.</p>

<p>^actually thats discrimination, therefore, its not a fundamental freedom...there have been many cases of minorities suing companies for racial discrimination.</p>

<p>It is an unjust law. Freedom of contract and association. I hate bigots, but they have the right to be bigots.</p>

<p>they have a right to discriminate against people on the basis of skin color?</p>

<p>As long as they are not the government, yes.</p>

<p>Someone's private business should be able to be run however that person likes - let the free market take care of them. If Joe set up a shop that said "NO COLOREDS" outside, would you shop there no matter what color you were? I sure as hell wouldn't.</p>

<p>So, if 'intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation', would you then support a law which requires a test to be performed, and outlawing any abortion where neurological function has begun? </p>

<p>Besides, thats functional maturity, genius. That doens't mean some function hasn't been around since the almost very beginning. The brain and spinal cord have been controlling things a lot earlier than 20 weeks. </p>

<p>As humans, we don't reach functional maturity until puberty....</p>

<p>You have made the bold declaration that 'intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres' is the definition of life. Why? You haven't given me a reason or an argument. You merely have an assertion, and you seem to think that from this it is self evident that thats when life begins. It is not. Give me an argument.</p>

<p>And yes, I know what an EEG is. Im 99.9% certain I know more biology than you...</p>

<p>"So of course, we can kill innocent people just to save some pocket change. And the fact that we also kill some guilty people makes it all OK."</p>

<pre><code> Sure it does! And they are not innocent. They shed the life of an innocent person for some reason. In my book, that murderer is not an innocent life.
</code></pre>

<p>Capital punishment would assuredly reduce the crime, and make our streets safer in the process.</p>

<p>Have you not been listening to like 20+ posts in this thread alone that state the facts that ONE IN SEVEN PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW HAVE BEEN PROVEN INNOCENT AND AQUITTED (if they were still alive) and in SEVERAL CASES, the executed was proven innocent (as with the guy in Texas who was executed for killing his best friend or girlfriend but it turned out to be a suicide as they found a video of her hanging herself AFTER they executed the supposed "killer"?) after their death? They were proven, with cold hard evidence to NOT be the killer, but they were already dead...How many more times do I and other people have to state this for you to understand it?</p>

<p>You and the government are shedding the life of an innocent person - MANY innocent people who were wrongly convicted - through the death penalty for some reason - probably this misguided reasoning that it's OK to kill innocent people if a) it saves you money on taxes and b) if some guilty people are killed along the way too. </p>

<p>And it doesn't reduce crime. Where are your facts? Prove your statement, if you can. Murders don't kill people with the intention of getting caught; they kill them because they think they can get away and not be punished. </p>

<p>Study after study has found that the death penalty does not in fact deter crime. In states that have the death penalty, more people are killed than in states without it. The USA has the most murders in the Western World and yet we are the only country in the West that has the death penalty.</p>

<p>----></p>

<p>But first, to dispel some myths that the proponents of the death penalty hold dear. The death penalty does not deter crime. Numerous statistical studies have discovered that the death penalty does not affect homicide rates. The studies that have shown otherwise have been consistently invalidated in terms of statistical technique and accuracy. These data are convincing to most criminologists, though all statistical studies must be taken with a grain of salt as they can never fully prove causation, only correlation, and even the most advanced of statisticians may not be able to account for the full range of sources of alternate causation. Thus, we are summarily left with this dilemma: if we accept the statistics, then the death penalty does not deter crime, and if we do not, then there is no evidence that the death penalty deters crime. Since it is an irreversible punishment, there is a significant burden to have compelling* proof that capital punishment has value as a deterrent – otherwise it has no practical advantage**. (Other than the fact that once the sentence is carried out, the murderer can never kill again – but a life sentence without parole does the same exact thing.)</p>

<p>*The highest constitutional standard, as applied by the Supreme Court in death cases. </p>

<p>**All punishments are designed to deter crime, but capital punishment is advocated as the most effective deterrent because of its final nature. Yet at the point that there is no proven deterring quality, it has no practical advantage over another punishment like life in prison without parole. </p>

<p>---></p>

<p>Most murders are not sentenced to death; those that do receive the death penalty are usually the ones that have poor representation, and are convicted with little to no credible evidence, the prosecution’s suppression of exculpatory evidence, improper jury instruction, mishandled cases, and non-credible witnesses (some of which have even been convicted for perjury). Many on death row have eventually been proven innocent with DNA evidence, confession of another as the killer, and on account of the perjury (or sometimes, the guilt) of the main prosecution witness. Death cases are different because once a mistake is made, it can never be reversed. Human life is never an acceptable cost for a “mistake.” Even the loss of a single innocent human life, no matter how despicable, totally outweighs the “justice” and “emotional relief afforded the victim’s family and friends” provided by the death penalty. As Gerald Kogan, former Chief Justice of the Florida Supreme Court, said, “If one innocent person is executed along the way, then we can no longer justify capital punishment.” Frame this in the fact that, *“[f]or every 7 executions–486 since 1976–1 other prisoner on death row has been found innocent.” *</p>

<p>---></p>

<p>And finally (the previous were excerpts from one of my poli sci papers, btw), I think the Civil Rights Acts of 1864 and 1964 are perfectly just laws. It's a critical step to moving toward eliminating racism - as much as possible, since you can't change individual mindsets - and absolutely critical in stopping the cycle of poverty that you condemn minorities to without it...</p>

<p>I believe racist hiring/firing policies are morally wrong, but I don't know about you. What happened to equality, people? As "fundamental" as "freedom of contract" is, I think the Constitution and Declaration of Independence would agree with me on the fact that equality is one of THE most important American values, superseding "freedom of contract"....</p>

<p>Last time I checked, the Declaration of Independence read this:</p>

<p>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."</p>

<p>Not this:</p>

<p>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created with the freedom of contract, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."</p>

<p>The emphasis is mine, of course.</p>

<p>Actually, Guyana, St. Lucia, Bolivia, Peru, Chile, Brazil, Latvia, Albania, Belarus, Bahamas, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Belize, Cuba, Dominica, El Salvador, Argentina, Jamaica, Argentina, St. Kitts, Grenada and Guatemala have provisions for capital punishment.</p>

<p>I will tell you my position on death penalty. If you are sure a murderer is guilty (I mean very sure-i.e.-video, finger print, DNA) he should be executed. If there is even a bit of uncertainty, there should be no death penalty. I don't care about deterring crime; its justice.</p>

<p>Edit again: Western Nations I counted North America, Europe, and South America.</p>

<p>Um, Western Nations? As in Canada, England, Germany...you get what I mean.</p>

<p>I have reservations comparing the US with countries that kill bums. And where people used to disappear without a trace, for no reason at all....I'm using it in less of a geographic sense and more in a political sense...</p>

<p>When the news articles say that the Western nations are mad at Iran for re-starting uranium enrichment, do you think they mean Brazil?</p>

<p>Sure. I agree with you that if we are absolutely sure that this guy is a murderer (circumstances warranting such a judgement), he should get the death penalty. But how do you make sure? Who checks? The justice system is supposed to bring "justice" to the people, but at the point that they don't, what do we do?</p>

<p>So I agree with you on the idea that if there's even a little bit of error/possibility that he's not guilty, he shouldn't be executed.</p>

<p>And finally, what if another guy commits the SAME EXACT crime as the first guy, but this second guy is white and rich while the first is black and poor and the white guy gets off with 50 years in prison but the black guy is executed? </p>

<p>That's why I will ONLY believe in the death penalty when everyone on death row is a murderer* and every murderer is on death row. </p>

<p>*(or who has been verified to commit a crime warranting such a judgement)</p>

<p>Even if the person is completely guilty, I don't think a judicial system should determine the extent of life.</p>

<p>I don't think the government should be involved at all...If one of my family members were killed, the only way I would want the murderer brought down would be by my own hands. Then again, that's the anarchist in me.</p>

<p>He that would live in peace and at ease, must not speak all he knows nor judge all he sees.
Benjamin Franklin</p>

<p>
[quote]
And finally, what if another guy commits the SAME EXACT crime as the first guy, but this second guy is white and rich while the first is black and poor and the white guy gets off with 50 years in prison but the black guy is executed

[/quote]

Yea, white guys that got away..like OJ.</p>

<p>So, if 'intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation', would you then support a law which requires a test to be performed, and outlawing any abortion where neurological function has begun</p>

<hr>

<p>I am aware that our brain does not fully develop until around 25. However, determining life due to brain function is a great deal more logical, for reasons previously stated, then determining life when there is a single cell is the mother's fallopian tubes.</p>

<p>I have also already stated that I agree in banning late term abortions if it is not for the health of the mother.</p>

<p>You have made the bold declaration that 'intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres' is the definition of life. Why? You haven't given me a reason or an argument. You merely have an assertion, and you seem to think that from this it is self evident that thats when life begins. It is not. Give me an argument.</p>

<hr>

<p>Look back in these posts. I already explain that I believe life begins with the brain, not the body.</p>

<p>Dont argue that there isnt a racial prejudice in the death penalty. there have already been multiple studies, most noticeably by the state of Texas and Pennsylvania that there is a great deal of bias along racial and socioeconomic lines. Look up the majority decision in Furman v. Georgia.</p>

<p>Maybe because blacks commit more crimes...Homicides at least...</p>

<p>From DoJ statistics:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for
-- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%)
-- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Blacks were 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2002
Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002

[/quote]

Now you're going to say..Aha! Blacks are victimized more often. Racism? nope..because</p>

<p>
[quote]
86% of white victims were killed by whites
94% of black victims were killed by blacks

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am out to work for my first time this summer :D Peace!</p>

<p>No the studies didnt deal with the pure numbers. it looked at those convicted of murder with circumstances that allowed for the death penalty to be tried, seeing that it was most likely for a poor black to be given the sentence of the death penalty.</p>

<p>Ugh nevermind. My trainer called in :(</p>