<p>“Toneranger, I keep reading this over and over and I hope you are not saying what i think you are saying about preschool teachers and PTs.”</p>
<p>No, if this was viewed as negative…or a broad brush comment in any way…I do apologize…that was not my intent. In reality, a couple of my good college friends are in these occupations…and they could care less about scandals and power mongers in the finance world. This can be viewed as a positive of course…:). I worked and socialized with a bunch of fancy over-paid IB types for a while…and I much prefer the company of my old buddies! Back to state schools…</p>
<p>Re: william & mary it is on my son’s screening list, and I was surprised to see that their % classes with 20 or fewer students was the same as other publics I screened; actually identical to U Va. W&M has 14% classes between 20 and 50, vs. 7% for U Va , but to me once your class looks more like lecture than discussion I don’t think it matters much how many students are sitting there. </p>
<p>The other school touted around here as “public LAC” is SUNY Geneseo, and their % classes with 20 or fewer is the poorest on his screening list. Surprisingly, to me.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl,
I do understand that reasoning. My own children both wanted big schools so we found ourselves looking at a lot of large public schools… My oldest Ds experience has been that, once you are in your major, the university gets much, much smaller. With my second child we will have to wait and see since she is going into her freshman year. i hope her experience is as positive as it has been for my other D. Two different colleges, mind you and this one is eight hours away. Time will tell.</p>
<p>^^^ And, increasingly a financial stretch or, even out-of-reach, for many in-state students with a lower SES.</p>
<p>With a declining percentage of state support for many great flagship publics, it’s fair to refer to them as only “state-assisted” universities. </p>
<p>That’s very unfortunate as I consider the great public universities —not the great private universities—to be the crown jewels of the American system of higher education in their balance of social purpose and quality academics.</p>
<p>EPTR…you do hear sometimes, albeit not super often, UVA being referred to as “The Public Ivy”. I agree with your point, though. </p>
<p>MOWC…a large % of the privates my D applied to (ex: ivys) don’t offer merit $. Also, the small amount of merit $ available at the privates in the top 25 is VERY difficult to obtain based upon competition and the small amount available (ex: Cornelius Vanderbilt scholarships). If you’re wanting lg sums of merit $, it’s definitely out there in the privates but usually those outside of the top 30 or so. Schools like Tulane, SMU, TCU, Pepperdine, Trinity, Elon, etc., etc. offer quite generous packages for great students.</p>
<p>When my second D was applying to a variety of private and public colleges my H was convinced that they all knew exactly where else she was applying because all of the financial packages (merit based) from the private schools came out to costing us the same as it would be for her to go to an out of state flagship. The only significantly different cost was for her to go to our own state flagship (where her sister goes).</p>
<p>One school was going to giver her about twenty thousand off her tuition. Sounds awesome until you look at the fact that the school costs about fifty. The public school she chose is going to cost us about thirty after scholarships. So it was a wash.</p>
<p>I’m sure this varies from person to person but for us, it was pretty equal across the board. Obviously a lot depends on where the student falls on the continuum of acceptances for that school. If a school wants your child it will make it worthwhile.</p>
<p>This is true, but the problem is that these schools don’t necessarily off everything a student may be interested in. </p>
<p>For my older son, with 1 or 2 exceptions, the only schools that offered his chosen curriculum were state schools (and there are only about 20 schools nation-wide). Of course, there is a chance that he could change his mind, but I doubt it. Plus - he really wanted a big school, in a small-town setting, with great school spirit, and a good marching band. There were no private schools that even interested him, so the concept of getting more merit money from private schools didn’t even enter into our discussions. </p>
<p>As others have mentioned (somewhere back in the 13 pages), there are several state schools with outstanding honors colleges, which help “reduce” the big school feel and offer outstanding opportunities and small classes. And, once you’re established in your major, the “size” of a university shrinks incredibly. For DS, only 100 students are accepted per year, so the whole department has only 400 students (it’s a 5 year program).</p>
<p>Two issues with public colleges. The first is unarguable, and I don’t care about it. The second is highly arguable and I care a lot about it.</p>
<ol>
<li> What public colleges don’t do that the equivalent private colleges do (at least at the elite level), is to provide a strong signal about what being a student there means. We all know (or think we know) what it takes to get accepted at HYPS or an equivalent college, so that when we know that so-and-so is a student at one of them, or a graduate, we actually know a lot of positive information about that kid. Not just that he or she is good at standardized tests and completing high school homework, but that he or she has that extra “oomph” or wow-factor that made him or her stand out as an applicant from the rest of the high-stat pack. If we know that so-and-so is a student at Berkeley, or Michigan, or UVa, we know that he’s pretty good at standardized tests and high school homework . . . and that in all likelihood Harvard and Stanford turned him down. (That’s true even in the relatively few cases where it’s wrong – people will think they know that.)</li>
</ol>
<p>It’s not inherently bad or anything that the state universities don’t signal as much positive information as the Ivy League schools. Their mission is to teach a broader range of students, with a broader range of abilities and outcomes. But their brand is going to be less consistent and positive as a result.</p>
<ol>
<li> A few times during my life I have seen virtual side-by-side comparisons. My brother was at an unglamorous state flagship while I was at a fancy private. A friend had daughters a year apart simultaneously at Duke and Penn State (Schreyer Honors College). My daughter went to a fancy private while her BFF went to a brand-new honors program at an excellent public university.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>In the first two cases (now somewhat outdated), there really was practically no comparison between the academic programs. The academic programs at the publics did not stack up well at all compared to the privates, not even close. The public institutions In the most recent case, that of my daughter and her friend, there was much, much more equivalence. The friend will be a fully-funded PhD student at a top (private university) program in the fall.</p>
<p>Obviously, one can’t generalize from those few data points at all. But I do have a sense that not every honors program is a “jewel” with high standards and an intellectual atmosphere, at least not for every student. And my daughter’s excellently-educated friend knew throughout college that she was not in the mainstream at her school because of her focus and ambition, whereas at her college my daughter felt a little out of the mainstream because she wasn’t ambitious enough. Those are two very different contexts for learning.</p>
<p>JHS, I don’t think this thread is necessarily comparing publics to ivies, I think it’s comparing publics to some of the other top privates. There are selective state flagships whose students can compare with students at top privates (see my earlier post). There are also less selective publics whose students can compare with less selective privates. Now, size and course selection may come into play, but you are not going to convince me that my son is not going to get an exceptional education at UNC.</p>
<p>If you want to compare selective publics to ivies, I bet you can find a number of students in those selective publics who turned down an ivy for a terrific merit scholarship at the public. It does happen.</p>
<p>We keep throwing this around (and it was my experience in college as well) but it is a BIG caveat. I know many students both in may day and currently that didn’t make it past first year because the university WAS huge and they, perhpas, had no idea what major they wanted or were bailing on a major. It can be junior year at a big state university before you are really “in” your major and have small classes. I’m not saying that is a deal-breaker, but it is something to consider. My niece just graduated from Penn State in engineering. Freshman year was really rough- big adjustment for a kid used to not working very hard and being at the top of a good suburban high school. Low GPA. Soph year much better but classes still big (not all, but many) and tough. Junior and senior year better (great GPA), but by then she was pretty burned out by the drunken party scene going on all around her. She lived off campus and has a lot of school spirit, but it got old. All in all, positive experience and she wouldn’t have picked a different school. She and her family found the bureaucracy at PSU daunting at times, too. Mainly good, but not perfect. Same can be said for most places.</p>
<p>MOWC -Obviously, it all depends on the student.</p>
<p>My son will be going to Penn State in the fall, in engineering, and as part of the honors college. I knew that his desire to be part of the university’s marching band was his way of finding a “small group” to belong to. He went thru this when we moved back to the US just before his junior year and he went from a TINY international school to a large public HS. The band made all the difference to him. </p>
<p>But I also knew that at Penn State (unlike some of the other schools he considered), there was no guarantee of making the band. That is why the SHC acceptance was so nice - it gave him an additional “back up” group to be part of. </p>
<p>In my son’s case, he will start “in his major” his sophomore year, which is somewhat unusual for engineering. I can see how floundering around for 2 years would be tough, especially if you weren’t sure of your area of interest. </p>
<p>I guess my DH and I are just stubborn, we both knew exactly what we wanted to study in college - and that’s what we did. :)</p>
<p>FYI - while I am a state school grad (BS and MS), DH was all private schools (BS- George Washington and MS- Duke) -and DH is THRILLED at our son’s choice of Penn State.</p>
<p>For sure, size can be a factor. And it’s not just publics - but really any large school. We have two examples in our community. One was a student at Penn State and the other at Cornell. From what I heard, both never really found their niche, hated the parties and felt invisible in the crowd. One transferred to a local small school in the local area…the other to a small Christian school. </p>
<p>My son did fine at PSU…although I think the honors college helped. He had some terrific small classes and I believe he was cherry picked for his TA job because he was an honors student. It’s interesting…the honors college is really what you make it. Some start there but drop out due to the requirements. Others coast through with the min to get by. And some of these kids are truly amazing…doing independent research…completing triple majors and joint bachelors/masters programs in four years. The opportunities are endless if you take them. </p>
<p>And speaking of branding…well Schreyer is beginning to build a reputation at least in these parts. They are ultra selective…and it’s not just scores and grades. It’s not even close to Ivy…but I’m not sure going to a place like Wake Forest or Lehigh buys you much “brand” My son’s Lehigh grad friend is currently waiting tables… (no offense to Lehigh…it was one of my favorites when we were looking but not my son’s!) </p>
<p>grx…best of luck to your son. Sounds like he is on a terrific track…</p>
<p>My daughter was seeking a LAC as the best fit for her. She was accepted at several good ones (well-respected in their region, less well-known outside their region). After receiving their top merit aid packages, we still had a small gap. </p>
<p>As a safety, she had applied to our state flagship, which she ultimately decided to attend (not as well-respected, but certainly well-known nationally). Basically, she will graduate almost debt free. For us, though, the deciding factor was that several things mitigated the size factor of the state u.: She’s going to major in a small humanities dept with relatively few grad students; she’s in the honors college; and, she’ll already knows several classmates from her honors program in high school, many of whom turned down top unis and colleges elsewhere to save money. </p>
<p>Another consideration was that the LACs often had an average of two profs in her field—giving her limited choices of professors and courses in her major. At the state u, she has many more choices. The facilities at the state u will match those at any private u (unlike many state unis, where the facilities sometimes are a little shabby); she’ll have great study abroad opportunities; etc. Though we favored the LACs for their teaching emphasis, when she checked student evaluations, the state u. has a number of very good profs in her intended major, and the profs at the LACs were a mixed bag.</p>
<p>JHS—I think your point about state unis signaling less positive info about a student is quite valid. As BuandBC82 pointed out, however, we’re not necessarily comparing state unis to Ivies. For my daughter, the choice was between a state u. and well-respected, but less well-known LACs. I also think it may be more of a factor in the Northeast than in the rest of the country. I’m a grad of a top 20 university (though back in the day before US News, rankings didn’t exist), but I don’t necessarily think it impresses anyone (except maybe Asian exchange students who are so into that sort of thing). My graduate degree from a third tier university (but tops in my field) did signal a lot more positive information, at least to employers and work colleagues.</p>
<p>MOWC—I think you’re quite right about the size factor for many students attending state unis, though.</p>
<p>"At my high school in the Boston area only the poor achieving students go to public school. If you end up at UMass-Amherst, you probably had a 3.0 GPA in CP classes and if you were under that you probably went to UMass-Boston or Worcester State etc… "</p>
<p>Not even close to being true. (I notice you live in Belmont). The average GPA at UMass Amherst is 3.6. There are over 4,000 students in the honors program at UMass. A student graduating from the honors program at UMass with a 4.0 can virtually go where he/she wants in terms of graduate programs. And with little to no debt. Pretty smart.</p>
<p>A. It depends on which public B. It depends on which private C. It depends on your student, their needs relative to size, diversity, the fields/majors they are interested in, their personality, your family finances, etc, etc</p>
<p>Is there really anyone who has thought about it seriously (I don’t mean someone making a glib remark at a party) who would disagree with the above?</p>
<p>If not, is there really any point to this thread.</p>
<p>We did not have to decide if public vs private was good or bad. We had to decide whether or not it was worth it to press OUR daughter, with her personality, goals, etc to apply to VTech. The decision was made at the eleventh hour, on January 15th, with a bunch of apps due, including VTech’s. and with her knowing she would have to drop one more from her list (she had already dropped Bucknell) Had she applied to VTech, she probably would have dropped RPI. </p>
<p>As it happened she is going to RPI, and got a very generous fin aid package. We revisited it, and we think it is very much the right place.</p>
<p>That is how these decisions are made. One particular school vs another, for one particular student at a time. NOT in broad generic categories.</p>
<p>Agree with zapfino…I don’t think many are trumpeting that it’s better to go to a state vs an Ivy. Especially HYP. And these days, with the generous packages being handed out by most ivies, it’s seems like a no-brainer that an Ivy would win out, unless the fit was poor (which happens but I’d say it’s rare for those who apply).</p>