<p>Everyone needs to pick what is best for their circumstances. It is not a one size fits all approach.</p>
<p>A state school is what you make it. The entrance standards may be lower than some privates, but the support is also less, and achievement depends on the student’s personal discipline and ability to seek out opportunities. The wheat gets separated from the chaff. Students who mess up, don’t go to class, who lack focus, etc. simply fall by the wayside, and no effort is expended on retaining them. The students who navigate their way successfully through a state school in four years tend to be pretty solid. State universities sort students more ruthlessly after admission, not before.</p>
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I don’t disagree, but the point strikes me as irrelevant. The average student at a top private would usually be a top student at the state school. However, the average student at the state school can’t get in at a top private anyway and therefore has no reason to make the comparison.</p>
<p>"The entrance standards may be lower than some privates, "</p>
<p>For some Honors programs it is not so. And how about some very selective programs? The program at state school that my D. is in had 10 spots for incoming freshmen. I am not sure that it was less selective than Ivy’s.</p>
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This is true of course but so is the converse. The average SAT scores and HS GPA to enter some of the publics can be quite high and even within the college can be higher for some departments (such as the School of Engineering) or can have other high admission standards - like the School of Theatre and Film at UCLA, certain arts programs, etc.</p>
<p>Again, one can’t really generalize ‘publics vs privates’ and one size doesn’t fit all which is why they all exist and fulfill a need.</p>
<p>Note - I’m only using UCLA as an example because of my familiarity with it.</p>
<p>-This is in no way official opinion of my office or position or a plug for the school, but I’d like to chime in.-
I’ve been watching this thread with a bit of interest since it started, both as a recent public school grad (and of course, as a public school admissions counselor). I think several of you have hit the nail on the head when discussing exposure and irrational preconceived notions. </p>
<p>Believe me, having lived in Arkansas most of my life and attending undergrad in Arkansas, I’m used to hearing all kinds of irrational stereotypes that would be broken if the person ever bothered to come visit the area (or the school). However, that semi-elitist specious reasoning of “well, school X is public so it’s naturally inferior to private school Y” or “school Z couldn’t possibly be as good as school A, it’s in _________ (Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, take your pick…) whereas school Z is in Maryland” is hardwired into us from a very young age and is a hard habit to break. From childhood we’re always learning about poor vs. rich, selective vs. open, gated community vs. apartment, and people naturally want to view themselves as the “better” option, so they project these stereotypes and opinions on things that don’t fit their mold, regardless of whether they actually know anything about them. </p>
<p>I couldn’t count the number of parents and students I’ve interacted with at college fairs out-of-state (and even some in-state) that had extremely low opinions of my school simply because they didn’t really know much about it, so they crafted their own opinion from stereotypes, or a comment from a friend, and never bothered to research it on their own. Luckily, it doesn’t take long to show them that simply isn’t true. I always enjoy reactions from families that come for a visit/tour/appointment with Honors as they realize the preconceived notions simply don’t fit reality. It’s very rewarding, and it’s something I’ve been used to dealing with for years :). It is also a very large part of why I even bother to be on this forum. I’m not here because my boss told me to, or it’s in my job description (I don’t think he even knows I’m on here, and it’s certainly not in the job description), I came to post on CC after I came across some comments on CC from a quick google search. The comments were scathingly negative posts stemming from ignorance about my alma mater, not legitimate concerns or past experience. Merely an uninformed person accepting their opinion or stereotype as a proven fact, and spreading it to anyone would listen. I decided to balance the scales a little bit :). It probably would help if we advertised more effectively out of state, but they don’t ask us about these things.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are dozens of other schools out there that get a very undeserved “bad rap” on this forum that are actually wonderful places for students with excellent academic programs and research opportunities. There is no one-size-fits-all college, if that were the case we’d all have the same alma mater and this whole search process wouldn’t be necessary. I like to think that most rational people know even a brilliant student might not be interested in HYP but love their state flagship for perfectly legitimate reasons, but sometimes I’ll read things on here that make me wonder…
I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, but this topic interests me on a personal level, so I’ll keep watching and keep learning.
-Matt</p>
<p>If we’re talking state flagships, especially the more selective state flagships, I think the average students at the public may be a little closer in similarity to the average private student than some might think. If you are only considering the top 20 private LACs then yes, but even there they’ll be some overlap. Once you start getting to #30, I’m not seeing a big difference.</p>
<p>UNC’s average 50% SATs on College Board are CR, 590-700 and Math, 620-710. Looking on College Board the top 20 LACs seem to fall around CR 660-760 and Math 650-750 (I’ll confess this is just an eyeball look; some school’s bottom and top may both be a little lower or a little higher). University of Richmond at #30 has a CR of 580-670 and Math of 590-680, Barnard (also at #30) has CR, 630-730 and Math, 620-710.</p>
<p>I think some of the average students at UNC could have gotten into a top private.</p>
<p>Hi Matt, good post.</p>
<p>I think that many people don’t realize that “private” doesn’t mean a college is highly ranked. There are many private colleges --probably the majority-- that welcome students with average and below average stats.</p>
<p>Often, the main determinant of whether someone goes to private or public schools is the amount of money their parents are willing/able to provide for college.</p>
<p>"Often, the main determinant of whether someone goes to private or public schools is the amount of money their parents are willing/able to provide for college. "</p>
<p>I agree but just because a parent/student chooses public doesn’t mean the money isn’t available. My son actually preferred the public choice. He is someone who plays close attention to the price of things…and choked on some of the full-price private price tags (even though he wasn’t paying for it!)</p>
<p>Lots of Private have awesome Merit packages. One example is Case Western. Private might end up not being the most expensive at all.</p>
<p>I actually think Case is low with Merit awards. My D got MUCH more from many other schools- including publics.</p>
<p>Well, my D. got the most from Case. We have left with about $5,000 tuition, but D. went to state school for unrelated reason.</p>
<p>I have a concern about state universities in states with relatively poor educational systems, and Arkansas is one of them. There is just too low of a bottom half at the university, and say what you want about Honors programs, etc., these are kids you are going to be living with, in fraternities with, in class with (except for your Honors dorms, classes etc which are not 100% of the deal) etc. I completely recognize that there is a strong top 20% or so and eventually like-minded peers will find each other. My somewhat elitist son spent a weekend at a highly-regarded (not top 5) state flagship this past semester during his senior year in college and was shocked at the inability of the students he met to discuss current events- especially politics and financial issues. He enjoyed the partying, but did not feel he would have enjoyed the college experience there as much as he did at his own school.
I know my own experience at a large out of state public also reflected this. I came from a very academic suburban public high school in a state with a strong educational system and I was shocked at the level of academic ability of many of my freshman classmates. My brother reports the same experience at Iowa State. Many of these students bomb out after freshman year, and it got better and better each year.
This is my opinion and I know not everyone agrees- but don’t pretend your peer group is going to be the same at Arizona State as at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>When my daughter (college class of 2013)was looking, we noticed that the SAT ranges for the honors colleges at UPitt and PSU were similar to each other, and to UPenn.</p>
<p>It is not uncommon for top students at our suburban school to turn down Ivies and other top schools (except for HYP) to go to PSU or UPitt, or in some cases to apply only to one or the other and opt out of the rest of the college admissions game once they are accepted through rolling admissions. Some do not even care whether they are admitted to the honors colleges, although others will stay in the game and go to the state school only if admitted to honors. (Typically, this means Schreyer at PSU, which is known among local GC’s as being somewhat quirky in admissions.)</p>
<p>Years ago, this sometimes raised eyebrows, but nowadays few seem to question this decision. In fact, many who had Ivy aspirations for their children just a few years ago are now steering them towards the state schools, especially if they fall into that uncomfortable demographic where they have too much to qualify for need-based aid, but cannot easily write that check for full-pay. </p>
<p>I wold add that as many middle-aged adults in this demographic are also hiring managers, it should be interesting to see if they increase recruitment at the state schools their children attend rather than the schools they once hoped their children would attend (including their own alma maters if their children were rejected.)</p>
<p>The biggest downsides of the state schools that I hear of are the social experiences, especially outside of honors dorms. Some parents report that their children have great difficulty finding like-minded friends or are even hazed by students who are not academically oriented for showing interest in academic development.</p>
<p>And, there are complaints that potential employers too often stereotype graduates of state colleges, even top graduates and even for technical positions.</p>
<p>what MOWC said.</p>
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<p>I’m responding to this one myself because I understand where you’re coming from, but once again, the opinion/concern (although valid) is based on faulty information.
A quick view of the Education Week’s 13th annual report will refute your opinion on Arkansas’s public school system, but I’ll provide a link where you don’t have to be a subscriber to view: [The</a> Best & Worst Public School Systems in the U.S. - WalletPop](<a href=“http://www.walletpop.com/specials/best-and-worst-public-school-systems-in-us/]The”>http://www.walletpop.com/specials/best-and-worst-public-school-systems-in-us/)
This can also be obtained as the first search result for a quick google search of “best public school systems in the us”.
The fact is, Arkansas has been ranked as the 10th best public school system in the US. Some areas of the state, Northwest and Central Arkansas primarily, have a number of blue ribbon/nationally recognized schools. I completely understand where this opinion is coming from- you’ll often see things mentioning “Arkansas ranked 49th in education”, etc, but no one reads the article to actually find out what “education” means. Arkansas has the 49th lowest percentage of college educated residents per capita. That is also a fact, and it what those articles spouting off the titles go on to say. However, a relatively “uneducated” adult population does not mean a poor school system, and I find that stereotype incredibly annoying, since I actually went to school in Arkansas and know it (from experience) to be false. Arkansas has been putting forth a great effort to increase the education level of it’s workforce and attract higher quality jobs in recent years, and they’ve been moderately successful. The new lottery scholarship is another step towards that goal, and will offer an additional $110 million a year in scholarships to in-state students, which is more than it sounds for a state with only 2.9 million people. At any rate, this education level is from a systemic economic issue- Arkansas, outside of Little Rock, Northwest Arkansas, and parts of north central Arkansas, is very agricultural and there are limited job opportunities outside of those or blue collar fields, so our students graduate, move away for jobs, and don’t come back. It’s a problem, no doubt. However, it has nothing to do with the quality of K-12 education or the colleges in our state.
For background, I attended high school in north central Arkansas at a school with plentiful AP classes and great test scores. I had access to career academies, college workshops, and a FIRST robotics engineering program, cosponsored by the high school and a large corporation in town (these teams often cost upwards of six figures a year to run for 20-30 students). I had friends attend Harvard, Duke, WashU, and Purdue from my class, and I’m sure others I don’t know as well also went to similarly competitive schools. My high school has a solid reputation within the state, but it’s not even necessarily one of the best, and certainly not one of the largest. I fell in love with the UofA after touring and learning about their strong pre-med program. I had no difficulty finding a group of intelligent friends that would just as soon discuss politics or the economy than play video games, I did this in less than two weeks (and I didn’t live in the Honors dorm my freshman year). It’s also worth noting that some state publics (like ours) have a large portion of their population from out of state. About 33% of our student body is from out of state, a number that is continuously increasing. Some state universities are far higher. I don’t feel the “bottom half” here had any effect on my education, and I don’t even think the “bottom half” is nearly as low as you make it out to be. I chose Arkansas in part so I could interact with a large group of people from a variety of backgrounds, more like the real world. I found the atmosphere at some of the higher end private schools I toured to be too elitist for my own taste, and I would have been miserable there, intellectual qualifications aside. Your peer group might be the same at ASU as it is at Dartmouth if you’re in their Honors College and make friends within it. Most of the students in the Honors Colleges don’t go somewhere because it’s the only place they could get in- they’re intelligent people that made that choice for a reason. No, the average ACT/SAT GPA will not be as high overall at an average state public as Dartmouth, but college is still largely what you make of it, and your student will find what they’re looking for, whether that’s a high ability student at a public looking for an intelligent group of friends, or a student at Dartmouth that’d rather party than study.
So, I do not agree with your assessment of the state’s public school system or the effect it has on the flagship. I’ve also visited a large number of high schools in and out of state, and although it is true that the eastern and southeastern sections of Arkansas are statistically quite poor and rural, their high schools surprised me by being every bit as nice and offering just as many classes as some schools in wealthier parts of the state (admittedly, I too was making assumptions) or large areas in other states. Northwest, Central, and parts of North Central AR are completely different in atmosphere, economy, and education than the rest of the state too. Arkansas has too many sections that vary widely from each other to be lumped as being “poor” or “uneducated”, but that is what most people do simply because you can’t account for different regions of the states in broad statistics.
I hope this adds a different viewpoint, also from the voice of experience, and I hope you’ll see that this is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post regarding perception and stereotypes.
-Matt</p>
<p>
Actually, my daughter made comments to me along those lines about some of the students on her floor at her dorm as a freshman at her very elite, prestigious LAC – so I wouldn’t judge a whole student body by the group of students your son happened to meet during a single weekend. </p>
<p>My son was a poli sci major at a CSU, and within his major he found peers who certainly could discuss political events in depth – I think he had one classmate who already held elective office in a neighboring community, either mayor or on the city council. (I also attended a public u. with someone who managed to get himself elected mayor of the college town while I was there-- so I don’t think its all that unusual. Do keep in mind that many public U’s have student bodies thats skew a little higher in median age).</p>
<p>I attended a public U for 4 years. In that time, I never attended a frat party nor any sort of organized sports event. I was doing things like working with students who organized a food camp, working on local election campaigns, doing off-campus volunteer work (via the on-campus volunteer center, which provided information and support). So obviously I met and hung out with an entirely different peer group. My friends tended to be pre-professional (pre-law, pre-med, etc.) or fairly serious about their studies. I’ve been back to the campus for reunions, and we were total slackers compared to most of the students I meet these days.</p>
<p>I’d also note that I used to clear out of town – or at least stay off campus and out of the way – on the big “event” weekends, like the Big Game (Cal/Stanford) events. So when an non-student visits a campus for a weekend related to such an event, they are seeing a certain segment of the population – and many other students are laying low to avoid the noise and the crowds. </p>
<p>One thing that does happen at public universities is that, in most places, upper level students are choosing to live off campus rather than in dorms, so the on-campus dorm life is dominated by youngsters, whereas in terms of on-campus social life, the upper level students disappear from view. It’s not that they aren’t there – its that they aren’t doing the types of things that draw attention. Even when my d. was at a private college, her experience was similar – freshman year she lived on the quad with other first-year students, sophomore-senior years she lived in campus-owned buildings that were physically located off campus and provided apartment-style living, and tended to socialize quietly with her suitemates and close friends.</p>
<p>I thought this was an interesting article about how more students are choosing public colleges because of the state of the economy. The state schools in NY are not always a “safety” school anymore especially some of the tougher ones. </p>
<p>[Recession</a> drives more graduating seniors to attend community colleges, state universities | syracuse.com](<a href=“http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/06/recession_drives_more_graduati.html]Recession”>Recession drives more graduating seniors to attend community colleges, state universities - syracuse.com)</p>
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<p>Realistically, how many kids in college spend the weekend discussing politics and financial issues? Heck, I know quite a few highly educated adults who have zero interest in discussing these things - zero. Not only do they not have any interest but if pressed, it’s obvious they’re not up-to-date on current affairs or politics. IMHO,this is a personal interest - almost like a hobby and not one that is reflective of how intelligent someone is or even how well-educated. In fact, I know lots of uneducated people who love to talk about politics. Wish I could figure out how to make them quit :)</p>
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But, again, my daughter expressed similar sentiments at an elite private college – in her case, in her freshman writing seminar, where she was stunned at poor writing skills of many of the other students. On the other hand, I’m sure there were many students who were equally appalled at my d’s poor math preparation – my point isn’t to insult the other students, but to point out that the student body elite private colleges isn’t quite as dazzlingly brilliant as made out, either. They come in with their own sets of strengths and weaknesses, as well as diverse interests. </p>
<p>In a sense, I might have been shielded from that experience at a public u, where I was exempted from the freshman English and writing requirements based on my SAT & AP scores --so never even took any lower division courses in English. Because many public U’s are quite generous with their policies related to AP scores and placement, I think that its probably fairly common for capable students to simply start out on a higher academic track.</p>
<p>So – if you assume from the statistics that every student at a large public university is lumped in with the masses of other students – you might conclude, erroneously, that the most capable are going to feel under-challenged. But the reality is that its a large and very much stratified environment, where students tend to end up doing coursework that is more closely matched to their ability level. Part of this division starts simply with choice of major, given that some majors are a lot more challenging and demanding than others.</p>