When can an Associate begin to have more flexible hours?

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>NALP and other law firm data report billable hour requirements in the upwards of 1900 - 2000 for Associates at some firms. But are these requirements mainly only for 1st and 2nd year Associates? At what point on the "track towards partnership" can an Associate receive a lower requirement (or more flexibility and guaranteed tenure with the firm), such as 1600-1700 billable hours? </p>

<p>From a health standpoint, it does not seem favorable to work 80-hour work weeks for an extraordinarily long time, and so my hope is that by the 3rd year at a firm an Associate will get reduced hours. Is this an unrealistic expectation? (Downright crazy expectation?) I base this hope based on learning that once one reaches Partner h/she receives more control over their own hours and more flexibility. What would be nice though is if some of this flexibility available at the 3rd year, if one desires to continue with the firm.</p>

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<p>That would fall into the “downright crazy expectation” category. Many partners never see that flexibility. I work - as a headhunter - with lots of partners who work harder than their associates. They would consider 1600 hrs. part time.</p>

3

<p>Billable hours requirements rise over the years before eventually capping. This is partly because associates are expected to get more efficient, such that they can bill more hours while wasting fewer hours in the office. However, expectations for associates are often much higher than officially stated requirements.</p>

<p>You seem to be asking two separate questions: are the hours *flexible<a href=“sometimes%20yes,%20sometimes%20no”>/i</a>, and do they *reduce<a href=“no”>/i</a>.</p>

<p>I did find that hours were sometimes flexible. Sometimes associates could, for example, take an hour in the middle of a day for a dental appointment and then work late that evening or work longer the next day. Of course, (1) that’s not THAT flexible, since you can’t (for example) leave at 3 PM to pick up a child at school every day and then come in at 5 AM to compensate; and (2) sometimes this doesn’t work, because a big trial is coming up or a big deal is closing and you really do have to stay there all night long; (3) sometimes a schedule is flexible but YOU don’t get to be the one who’s flexible–your hours will be erratic and a partner (or a client) will be the one scheduling you.</p>

4

<p>When I was a “biglaw” associate, the senior partner in my group liked to see “his associates” in the office on Saturday when he came in to open mail. Even if we didn’t have to be there to get work done - and that was unusual - we still knew we needed to be there for face time. If we could, we left as soon as he did. Once I did get caught doing that because he had stopped on the street to chat with someone so I came strolling out right in front of him. We also had a partner who got to work every morning before 7 am. I got there about 8am. He called me the “second shift.” Fun times.</p>

5

<p>Cartera, were you the one who told the following story?</p>

<p>One longtime poster here commented that when she was an associate, there were two partners to whom she answered, who kept noticeably different hours. One came in very early but left at a reasonable hour; one came in at a reasonable hour but left very late. Under any kind of a humane schedule, one partner would see her come in “late” or the other would see her leave “early.” Unless she worked from 6 AM until 10 PM every day, one or the other of the partners would be annoyed.</p>

6

<p>when i worked at a law firm, it worked as a meritocracy where good work was rewarded with … more work. or as i have seen it described – working as an associate is like being in a pie eating contest where the prize is more pie.<br>
and it doesn’t end if you make partner. you don’t make partner by easing up along the way. and you don’t ease up once you make partner either. you may have more say in what type of pie you get to eat, but the reward is still more pie.</p>

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<p>OP, you asked whether it is unrealistic to expect reduced hours as a third year associate. I actually laughed out loud. Seriously, I did. While I agree that it is probably not healthy to work as many hours as many attorneys do indeed work, the hours are pretty much long and unpredictable, and rarely will anyone with whom you are working give a hoot whether it’s your anniversary, whether you have a terrible cold or whether you have tickets to see a show. Sure, your colleagues will commiserate with you, but then you will almost always be expected to suck it up and stay at the office despite any inclination to leave you might have.</p>

<p>Look - it’s 10:52 p.m. here, and even though I have been working since 7:45 this morning, I am still working (obviously taking a break for a few minutes because I am just fried). I probably won’t get to go home for another couple of hours. Yes I have been working these kinds of hours for years and years now, as I am a pretty senior attorney at this point in my career (let’s just say I haven’t been an associate in a while). You don’t get paid well just because you’re smart and personable . . . you get paid well as an attorney because you are sacrificing, and not infrequently you are sacrificing big time.</p>

<p>(When I was a young associate, during one very long night at the office, I and a few colleagues added up the hours we had worked that month and determined how much money we were making per hour. Let’s just say I could have worked as a nanny and made more.)</p>

<p>Law firms do well financially because they serve their clients needs, desires and whims. As I was told years ago, when a client asks us to jump, we need merely ask how high. Some legal work is truly time sensitive, and the sheer volume of things that need to get done requires attorneys to work long hours. Sometimes, and fortunately, much less frequently, partners/senior attorneys merely want to have babysitters around (as in the situation that cartera mentioned) – in my opinion, those situations are the worst. </p>

<p>I must add that the NALP data that OP cited is also laughable to me. Working only 1900-2000 year after year here would lead to a short career. There are no guarantees of continued employment, and the most in demand associates and the partners who bring in the most business/service the most clients work the most hours. </p>

<p>I apologize for the disjointed post – as I mentioned, it’s been a long day.</p>

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<p>bluedevilmike - That one wasn’t mine, but I can really see that happening. I was not and am not a morning person. I was born a night owl. I struggled mightily to get in by 8am, but I was very often in the library at midnight and all nighters were frequent during trials and brief writing. </p>

<p>I was an associate in the early 80s and was put on probation because I only billed 2100 hrs. one year. I remember sitting in my review hearing about a fellow associate who billed 2400 hrs. I don’t think they would have put me on probation had I not asked the partner if he knew the difference between me and that associate (the associate worked for him) and I said “I am honest.” That went over really well.</p>

9

<p>Sally and Catera: Just got home (12:45 am) and also fried - too wired to sleep, my mind is racing about the deal I’m working on, and I need to be back in the office for an 8:00 am conference call. I also calculated my hourly rate once, and figured out that I was making less than almost everyone I knew. A group of lawyers at my last deal spent 1/2 hour discussing the islands where we wanted to bartend…</p>

<p>To OP - I agree with everyone else.</p>

10

<p>I’m still working too. I’m trying to find attorneys to call tomorrow to fill a few in house jobs I have. </p>

<p>Based on my calling, I repeat my warning to young attorneys. Beware the golden handcuffs. These companies offer sophisticated work and a better lifestyle than the firms at which these attorneys work. Four of them told me today that they would love to consider these jobs but they cannot take a pay cut. They are at large firms making well over $200k. The base salary for the in house jobs is in the $150k range, but they can’t consider them. Many of them feel stuck.</p>

11

<p>to the OP – I really think you need to come to a better understanding of what it is like to be a lawyer. I’ll try to offer some information – if some of it are things you know, please don’t feel insulted, hopefully others reading this may still benefit. And I’m sorry if I underestimate your current knowledge, but your question just really reflected a great deal of naivete as to what the practice of law is like. </p>

<p>1) Right now, the legal field has changed as a result of the economy – even large prominent law firms were laying off attorneys and cutting back on hiring. There are many law school graduates who are either not employed in the legal field or underemployed (eg. doing very mundane poorly paid “legal” work). That’s why there are many threads here talking about the importance of attending a top school and being extremely cautious about incurring large law school debt. Even those attending top schools are not finding the same employment opportunities they might have several years ago.</p>

<p>No one can predict how things will change as the economy improves. I’ve heard some say that clients will never put up with paying outrageous legal fees again, but once the economy is good, who knows how long their memory will be. But beyond the current economic issues, the following are true for the practice of law (at least from my experience and that of many other lawyers i’ve known over the years).</p>

<p>2) Prospective law students often hear the high salaries being paid and assume that they will earn that type of money. There are many lawyers who earn far far less. Generally the big money is at the big firms and they expect incredibly long hours to support those salaries. The hours they bill the clients for associates’ work not only have to pay the associate’s salary, but office overhead and partner profits. </p>

<p>3) I’ve known people who thought, “i’ll work for a few years at big law, pay off my debt and save a bundle, and move on.” Often an associate doesn’t have a choice as to how long they get to stay at a big firm – attrition is huge. Even those with the option to stay, often underestimate just how grueling the work is and how soon they will feel they are ready to leave. But the money gets pretty hard to walk away from. Debt repayment can take many years and it is easy to learn to live a lifestyle dependent on your salary.</p>

<p>4) Law is a service industry. Lawyers serve their clients. A lawyers is ethically obligated to diligently represent the interests of their client. Seems pretty basic. But so many prospective law students simply don’t understand the practical implications of this. It means if a client calls 5 pm on a friday and needs something monday morning, you are there all weekend --regardless how frivolous their monday am deadline may be. It means if a client wants you to explore a dozen other options, you spend your time diligently exploring them, even if they end up following your initial advise. It means if you personally feel that your client is “wrong,” you still do everything you can to represent what your client wants – unless it is illegal or unethical for you to do so. The nature of your life as a lawyer will be directly determined by your clients. Work at a small local firm handling house closings or other items with no time pressure – your life is much different than if you work at a firm handling high pressure time sensitive matters. (and do not assume that a small firm, or clients that are individuals rather than businesses means that there aren’t time pressures!) But also always remember – it is the clients who ultimately pay your salary. You want the big salary – it means working the big hours to do what the high paying clients want done.</p>

<p>5) Law firms are businesses. Businesses dependent on attracting and keeping clients. If you can’t keep a client happy, there is another firm out there all too eager to do so. </p>

<p>6) Back in the day, if an associate was able to stick around long enough (not necessarily something easy to do), they made partner. Today it is more common for associates to remain with firms in non-partnership positions (or non-equity partnership positions). There is no kicking back and relaxing – its a business – that also means that some attorneys who are able to bring in clients will fare better than other attorneys who have “better” legal skills but don’t bring in clients.</p>

<p>7) When you first arrive at a law firm after law school, you will know little about the actual practice of law – you will learn from the more senior attorneys. for your first two years, the firm may have to write off a fair amount of your time (i don’t know if this is still the case – it was true back when i was a new associate – big firms expected not to make money off the new associates, but were “training” them so they would be more profitable in the “middle” years. i don’t know if the economy has reduced a firm’s patience with the learning curve – i wouldn’t be surprised if it did). so in answer to your question, no, things don’t quiet down after two years – that’s when you start to actually do more meaningful profitable work for the firm, and they expect you to do so in order to earn what they’ve been paying you.</p>

<p>8) as an associate, your life is not only dictated by your clients, but by the senior attorneys you report to. they got where they got by working hard. they’re not going to be sympathetic to your desire to have a more flexible lifestyle. they want to see that you are as committed to the work as they are.</p>

<p>bottom line – lawyers work very hard for the money they earn. NEVER underestimate that fact in considering whether you want a career as a lawyer.</p>

12

<p>The other thing to recognize is that as you move up the food chain, the type of work may change and thus the billing requirements. A rain-maker may have minimal billable hours, for example, but is responsible for bringing in new clients, i.e., it is a 99% Sales function.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for all your helpful information!</p>

14

<p>Hey guys, high school junior here.
I wanted to ask you about how long it took you to pay off all your loans(assuming you took out loans).
You mentioned that associates are paid poorly, how many years did it take you to pay off your debt? Are you still paying it off? How long would it take for the average associate to pay off all of his/her loans if he/she were in biglaw?</p>

15

<p>“You mentioned that associates are paid poorly”</p>

<p>Associates are paid relatively poorly, with emphasis on relatively. In BigLaw, you start out making about 160000-200000 (depending on bonus) your first year, and your compensation increases with each additional year. It could take as little as three years and as much as fifteen years to pay off your loan.</p>

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<p>Let’s be clear, though. Not all “biglaw” firms pay first year associates $160,000/year to start. Many biglaw firms pay less, particularly outside of the NYC/Washington DC/LA/SF markets. As has been much discussed on this board, getting a biglaw job is most often quite difficult, except for those who do well at the very best law schools in the country. The majority of law firms pay significantly less (see this NALP survey: [NALP</a> - The Association for Legal Career Professionals | How Much Do Law Firms Pay New Associates? A 14-Year Retrospective as Reported by Firms](<a href=“http://www.nalp.org/2009septnewassocsalaries]NALP”>NALP - National Association for Law Placement | How Much Do Law Firms Pay New Associates? A 14-Year Retrospective as Reported by Firms) for more detail).</p>

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<p>“guaranteed tenure with the firm”</p>

<p>I’d say that’s a downright crazy expectation nowadays, too, even for the chairman of the firm. Everyone, without exception, is judged by what they’ve done for the firm lately. There’s nothing you can do that gets you any kind of tenure that counts if you lose your clients.</p>

18

<p>interesting article front page of ny times today-- “At Well-Paying Law Firms, a Low-Paid Corner”. Wrote about Orrick going to a non partner track in its smaller office in Wheeling W. Va. Referring to these positions as career associates and pay between $50,000-65,000. just to quote “There are no second class citizens at Orrick,said Mr. Baxter “This is a career path for people who want it because they prefer the attributes”. Article mentions other firms going that route- but in their smaller markets only.<br>
This is not geared for those on the” partner track" or for those who want to work those gruling hours to pay off law school debt- but the old model of making big bucks for working ridiculous hours does appear to be shifting a bit even at major law firms.<br>
I’m sure the economy has something to do with the change- but it is happening!</p>

<p>Menloparkmom was able to link the article - on her post “A warning to those planning to attend law school for the $$”. It’s an important and interesting article to read.</p>