When does your 5 year commitment start at USNA?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
21

<p>Not to quibble - but there is a difference between the obligation "kicking in" at the end of the 2nd year, or at the start of the 3rd year - SUMMER TRAINING.</p>

<p>If the obligation (and 2 for 7 papers) were signed at the end of the 2nd year (Youngster Year) - then every MID going on summer training would have the obligation.</p>

<p>The Reality - there are Mids who go on summer training after their 3rd Class year, come back and notify the academy that they intend to drop out and not sign the 2 for 7 papers. </p>

<p>Typically, all the Mids (the entire Brigade) return from training about 1 week before classes start. This is the time when books are issued, plebes transition from Plebe Summer to the academic year, etc. The 2 for 7 papers are typically signed Thursday & Friday before classes start the following Monday. Shortly thereafter, the new Second Class Mids will have a fine dining event to commemorate the obligation.</p>

22

<p>Don't you love it when people start out their declaration with "Don't mean to quibble" and then proceed to their quibble?</p>

<p>Sort of like telling the girlfriend "I'm not good enough for you" as your proceed to break up. Or, "I don't mean to say this, but . . . ."
Or, "Dear John . . . "<br>
Or, . . . what is your example?</p>

<p>The question, as stated, was somethin along the lines of [becasue I don't remember exactly] When does your five year commitment start at USNA?</p>

<p>Strictly speaking, since many of you apparently do, in fact, want to quibble, the answers is never. Your 5-year commitment doesn't start while you are USNA. The fulfillment of one's five-year commitment begins AFTER the USNA. The two for seven, even, is a misnomer. You can quit during the first and second class years with far lesser consequences than after graduation; in fact, I think you can quit during the second-class and first-class year with less than a five-year enlisted obligation. So, it is NOT a two for seven OLBIGATION. There may be penalties--financial and enlisted obligations--for quitting during the following years, but it is not a 5-year commitment necessarily.
Compare this, for example, with quitting after commissioning, which would carry substantially more penalties.</p>

<p>But, nevertheless, it is interesting to see how a simple question can generate so many responses.</p>

23

<p>Don't you just love how people can continue to quibble about a question and continue to get the answer wrong. Totally wrong.</p>

<p>Go back and read post #16
Vinyardmh you are correct. One can complete summer training and still own zero obligation.
You can quit anytime during your first two years and owe ZERO obligation. No time and no money.
The question was:
When does the 5 year obligation start at the USNA? After plebe year or second year?</p>

<p>*Once you attend the first class your 2nd class year (Junior year) you owe Uncle Sam the minimum of 5 years of service. That service begins upon commissioning. *</p>

<p>One would think a BGO and SA parent would know the answer to a simple question.</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
One would think a BGO and SA parent would know the answer to a simple question.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>we do-
enough to know that the answer is never that simple, that no two circumstances are ever the same, and that not all is at it appears to be. Enough said.</p>

<p>The real question is why is the question being asked in the first place.
Is mom and dad trying to convince a reluctant candidate to "try it on" for 2 years, or get 2 years of "tuition-free" education, and in either case opt out for college St. Elsewhere? Or perhaps waiting to see what the world looks like 2 years hence before "really committing?"...... Hmmmm.........Sure as heck hope not-</p>

25

<p>It is simple - it is spelled out in the Service Agreement that is signed along with the Oath of Office when plebes report on R-Day/I-Day.</p>

<p>The law is the law is the law. It is not difficult or full of "circumstances" and it is all that it appears to be.</p>

<p>Look up DOD directive 1332.23 dated 2/19/1988.
Title 10 US Code 4348(b)</p>

<p>I did make one error - "Second Class year shall be deemed to have commenced at NOON on the first day of regularly scheduled academic classes following the summer training period."</p>

<p>As a clarification - the 5 years of service is 5 years of ACTIVE DUTY. The term of Military service obligation is actually 8 years. The remaining three may be served in the Reserves or IRR (unless you are Stop Lossed, haven't heard of that happening to the Navy though)</p>

26

<p>Here it is for those of you who are google impaired:</p>

<p>Look under item 6.</p>

<p>DoD</a> Directive 1332.23, February 19, 1988; Certified Current as of November 21, 2003</p>

27

<p>Except that your bold statement appears to be incorrect . . .
[I did not take the time to look up th elaw; your link is to a DOD directive.]</p>

<p>Policy 6.1.1.3 states that second or first class mids disenrolling after the beginning of the second class academic year but before completing the course of instruciton may be ordered to active duty for not less than 2 years BUT NOT MORE THAN 4 years.</p>

<p>Policy 6.1.1.4 indicates that a first classman declining his appointment as a commissioned officer may be ordered to active duty for FOUR years.</p>

<p>So . . .you DO NOT owe the government a minimum of 5 years of service once you attend the first class of your 2nd class year. One wold owe somewhere between 2 and 4 years fo service. Furthermore, while active duty is the PRIMARY means of reimbursement of education, mids may petition to reimburse the government the costs of educaiton. [6.2] The mid may not owe service as a result of humanitarian reasons [6.1.4.1] or medical reasons [6.1.4.1]. Thus, there are several circumstances under which a 2nd class [or first class] mid might not "owe" the government 5 years of service. </p>

<p>Hence, the whole 2 for 7 is fallacious. I've always wondered what it was supposed to mean? 2 more years for five years of service is more accurate; shouldn't it be 2 for five? Because, as stated, 2 years of service does not result in a five year obligation. and anything less than 2 years of service certainly does not result in a five year obligation.</p>

<p>Now, Just a Mom, were you referring to this BGO or another who should know the answer to a question.</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
One would think a BGO and SA parent would know the answer to a simple question.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
we do-

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Doggone right we do! Just ask us! :cool: And we're not even esquire barristers, who only THINK they know it all, and charge for it regardless of the truth. Who cares about truth, just bill 'em, Perry Mason:p</p>

<p>Now, who's on 1st? :confused: Cmon, toss up the next question.</p>

29

<p>First, I know nothing. Nothing. I understood the whole intent of the 2 for 7 deal was to give credit towards pension requirements for the last two years at the Academy. I know nothing. So do I still know nothing, is this just another illusion on my part.</p>

30

<p>Gotamidin -
You threw in something new - </p>

<p>".....credit towards pension requirments for the last two years at the Academy. ..."</p>

<p>None of the academy time is creditable for military retirement. Military time (minimum of 20 years normally) starts with Commissioning (unless the person was prior service, and then the enlisted time counts.) </p>

<p>And like this thread shows - there are a wide variety of exceptions. Those going to NAPS are serving as enlisted, so that time counts (about 1 year) toward their military retirement.
For those who leave the military service without retiring, ALL military service INCLUDING service academy time - can be credited toward FEDERAL CIVIL SERVICE retirement time, if appropriate "buy ins" are made for the service time.</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
Now, Just a Mom, were you referring to this BGO or another who should know the answer to a question.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would think that each and every BGO should know the answer and be able to have an intelligent conversation about the Agreement to Serve that each candidate signs when they report for duty. That would be on I-day/R-day.
You should know roughly what the agreement says and when it becomes effective.</p>

<p>After all, at the end of each BGO interview don't you ask candidates if they have any questions?
Perhaps you should call up admissions and get a copy.</p>

<p>Parents and candidates -
If you have any questions about the Agreement to Serve - I suggest you call up the admissions office and ask them for a copy. USMA sends them out to every candidate offered and appointment, USNA probably does as well.</p>

32

<p>
[quote]
Those going to NAPS are serving as enlisted, so that time counts (about 1 year) toward their military retirement.

[/quote]

I believe this is only true if the NAPSTER came from the fleet. For those coming into NAPS as a civilian - i.e. direct from high school - the year doesn't count.</p>

<p>
[quote]
For those who leave the military service without retiring, ALL military service INCLUDING service academy time - can be credited toward FEDERAL CIVIL SERVICE retirement time, if appropriate "buy ins" are made for the service time.

[/quote]

This I didn't know - so hypothetically, after 4 years at a service academy and 20 years Active duty, one could retire with a military pension, go to work for the Federal Gov't, buy back 4 years at the academy, work for 16 years and retire with a 20 year pension?</p>

33

<p>This ultimately is a very simple or very complicated question, and which of those it is largely depends on the intent behind the question.</p>

<p>The simple answer (and the one that applies to the overwhelming majority of mids) is that when you start 2/C year classes, you're agreeing to another 2 years at USNA and another 5 upon graduation.</p>

<p>The complicated answer is that the actual moment your obligation starts at USNA and beyond, the "penalties" for leaving early, and the ultimate number of years you'll devote to the USN or USMC are a bit more complex and, in some cases, may vary based on a variety of factors. </p>

<p>Your USNA commitment may start at noon the first day of classes or the moment you sign the paperwork or some other time -- I must confess that I don't know (and I'm a BGO) the exact moment. And, frankly, the exact moment doesn't matter for counseling prospective candidates because, in no case, will it occur for well over two years. </p>

<p>If you're a mid who is thinking of quitting after 2 years, you will hopefully notify your chain of command and they typically (at least in my experience) will ensure you don't "accidentally" commit yourself until you have affirmatively made the decision to do so (i.e., they will hold you out of classes for a few days, etc.). There is no interest in "tricking" people into a commitment, although the decision-making process can't go on forever.</p>

<p>If you do decide to stay at USNA and, for some reason (academics, fitness, honor, etc.) don't make it through the final two years, you may have either to pay back some/all of the cost of your education and/or serve as an enlisted sailor for a period of time. I'm sure there are laws on the issue but, in practice (at least in my day), what happened to you had a lot to do with the circumstances that led to your departure. In any event, those ramifications will be made clear to you at the time. I have heard that the USN is getting tougher on recouping costs, etc. </p>

<p>Finally, your obligation to the USN or USMC will typically be at least 5 years (and there are some very rare exceptions to that) or may be longer than 5 years, depending on your service selection. You will fully understand your service obligation when you make your choice (and, presumably, before). Again, for the overwhelming majority of mids, your obligation starts upon graduation. For some mids, it may start at a later date; again, if you are in this category, you will be advised about this. </p>

<p>So, back to the initial question -- MORE OR LESS, when you start 2/C year classes, you are agreeing to spend another 2 yrs at USNA and another 5 years as an officer. That should be sufficient information for 99% of candidates. Not to say the minutiae isn't important but, for candidates who haven't even been appointed, it really isn't (or shouldn't be).</p>

34

<p>Super response and precise insight. Many thanks! Gotamidn wants it simple, some others less so. You've illumined us all. :cool:</p>

<p>Question on the "pay back": Is it for years 3 and beyond, or after signing, does it revert and include the once 2 "free years?" I recognize that this is the rare bird indeed who chooses to fly at this point. Also, do I understand that the payback is due even in the event the departure is due to a medical situation that the Mid had nothing to do with? What if it's a medical/physical situation as result of USNA or summer duty responsibilitites? Can you take us any further on this?</p>

35

<p>It is all spelled out in the DOD link:</p>

<p>
[quote]
6.1.4.2. Persons medically disqualified from further Military Service shall be separated and shall not be obligated further for Military Service or for reimbursing education costs (absent evidence of fraud, concealment, gross negligence, intentional misconduct, or misrepresentation).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>and....

[quote]
6.2. Active Duty Commitment and Reimbursement Agreement for Service Academy Students. Active duty service is the primary means of reimbursement for education. Cadets or midshipmen who are not ordered to active duty due to their misconduct or because they petition to be relieved of active duty obligations may be required to reimburse the Government for the cost of their advanced education.</p>

<pre><code> 6.2.1. As a condition for providing education at a Service academy, the Secretary of the Military Department concerned shall require that each cadet or midshipman enter into a written agreement in which he or she agrees to do the following:

    6.2.1.1.  To complete the educational requirements specified in the agreement and to serve on active duty for a period specified in the agreement if called to active duty or, at the option of the Secretary of the Military Department concerned, to reimburse the United States, as prescribed in subparagraph 6.2.1.3., below.

    6.2.1.2.  That if such cadet or midshipman fails to complete the educational requirements specified in the agreement, such person if so ordered by the Secretary of the Military Department concerned, shall serve on active duty for a period specified in the agreement.

    6.2.1.3.  That if such person, with the approval of the Secretary concerned or because of misconduct, voluntarily fails to complete the period of active duty specified in the agreement, he or she shall reimburse the United States in an amount that bears the same ratio to the total cost of advanced education received as the unserved portion of active duty bears to the total period of active duty such person agreed to serve.

    6.2.1.4.  To such other terms and conditions as the Secretary concerned may prescribe to protect U.S. interest.

6.2.2.  The obligation to reimburse the United States is a debt to the United States.  A discharge in bankruptcy under 11 U.S.C. 523 reference (i)) shall not release a person from an obligation to reimburse the United States under the terms of an agreement prescribed in this Directive if the final decree of the discharge in bankruptcy shall have been issued in a 5-year period after the last day of a period when this person shall have agreed to serve on active duty.  This Directive applies to a discharge in bankruptcy in any proceeding that began after September 30, 1978, under 10 U.S.C. 2005(c) and (d) (reference (b)).

</code></pre>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Finally as well in the directive - proof that your midshipmen signed this agreement upon entrance to the academy -

[quote]
6.3. Agreements. The agreement signed by cadets and midshipmen entering as fourth classmen shall contain the active duty and discharge provisions in this Directive.

[/quote]
</p>

36

<p>justamom-
thank you for providing the information.
the other disrespectful remarks directed towards BGOs was unnecessary.</p>

<p>As for the above directive-
law or not, all is subject to the Sec of the Navy.
every case is looked at individually, and from the few I know of, no two have had the same outcome.</p>

<p>we can continue to argue this ad nauseum, but the bottom line is quite simple:
if you decide to accept an appointment to a service academy, know that it comes with a service committment once you complete 2 years of schooling. If it matters a whole hill of beans if that means 5 years, +/- months, days, hours, minutes or seconds, then perhaps you need to re-think what you are doing.</p>

<p>Despite momof4's great intent to enlighten us all on what the law says, USNA1985 hits the nail on the head on how that law gets interpreted- no offense to momof4 intended or implied.</p>

37

<p>No disrespect intended Navy 2010 - just trying to state the facts.</p>

38

<p>thankyou, and well appreciated.</p>

<p>I can only speak for myself in this regard, and alas, without any personal first hand experience other than what I have seen happen over the past few years- in that regard, from outward appearances, it appeared each case was migitated to some degree, based on factors not made public. All I can say is that each case appears to be treated individually, with the Sec of the Navy making the final call as to what the outcome will be. No doubt the law gives guidance, however I am not sure to what extent the letter of it gets applied- in the two cases I know of, it was tempered to some degree.</p>

39

<p>I really think the facts speak clearly for themselves, no migitation necessary. Thanks JustAMama</p>

40

<p>Wow you guys really know how to spin...</p>

<p>There are no facts that speak clearly to this subject - even as to the precise moment that we are legally committed. Although you can quote the DOD directive I can tell you with certainty that it is a guideline - which if you read it has many clauses that are "may be ordered", "if so ordered" "may prescribe". The cases for dismissal go through the chain of command with recommendations made by the Superintendent and on up to the Secretary of the Navy who will make the final call and even then can be massaged. He ultimately has the final say in what the penalty is for leaving after signing the commitment papers. No two cases are the same. A good example that you can find public details on is from the Class of 2006 concerning a certain football player.... </p>

<p>
[quote]
Navy Secretary Donald C. Winter ruled his conduct "unsatisfactory" and ordered him discharged,....</p>

<p>...education was valued at close to $136,000, but his debt since reduced to $90,797.75 "in recognition of his noteworthy professional conduct during the time he served as a midshipman following his anticipated graduation date", the Navy stated in a written statement....</p>

<p>Vice Admiral Rempt had recommended that ***** repay nothing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now how it is handled up the Hudson I can not say other than they wanted to let a certain athlete separate with no commitment... please advise how that fits with the DOD directive if it is indeed a directive followed to the letter.</p>