When it pays to go to a private school over a public university

Parents Forum
61

<p>Oh, come on wis.</p>

<p>Wait. Curmudgeon already said that.</p>

<p>But you're probably right: REAL scientists don't respect LACs or their students. Only... I wonder what kind of dull nimrods inhabit those tippy top engineering grad schools that accepted my serious LAC science major S? sit on the editorial peer review committees of the top journals that published his articles? judged his award-winning conference presentation? Hmmm.</p>

<p>Not to be unkind... but I'd bet everything I own and all I could borrow that you don't know a single thing about the backgrounds of the profs at his school or the level of difficulty of his courses.</p>

<p>Once again, "borrowed" from curmudgeon, this time with FEELING:

[quote]
There are frogs and princes everywhere. Your job is to differentiate between the two.

[/quote]
</p>

62

<p>
[quote]
LAC's are not the way to go for science students.

[/quote]
Unless you want to rise to the top of your field, doing research and teaching college students; LACs do well here. Here are the top ten schools producing the highest percentages of future researchers and professors (PhD conferees) in various sciences (there are some LACs in the list):</p>

<p>BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES: Reed, CalTech, Swarthmore, U Chicago, Kalamazoo, MIT, Earlham, Harvey Mudd, U Sciences Philadelphia, Grinnell</p>

<p>CHEMISTRY: Harvey Mudd, Reed, CalTech, Wabash, Carleton, Grinnell, Wooster, Kalamazoo, Texas Lutheran, Bowdoin</p>

<p>MATH & COMPUTER SCIENCES: CalTech, Harvey Mudd, MIT, Reed, Rice, Princeton, U Chicago, Carnegie Mellon, St. John's, Pomona</p>

<p>MEDICAL SCIENCES: U Sciences Philladelphia, Albany College of Pharmacy, Hampshire, UCSF, Ohio Northern, Stanford, U Texas Health Science Center, Reed, Mount Holyoke, Wellesley</p>

<p>PHYSICAL SCIENCES: Harvey Mudd, CalTech, MIT, Reed, NM Institute of Mining, Carleton, Wabash, U Chicago, Grinnell, Rice</p>

<p>PHYSICS: CalTech, Harvey Mudd, MIT, NM Institute of Mining, Reed, U Chicago, Princeton, Carleton, Marlboro, Rice</p>

<p>SCIENCES & ENGINEERING: CalTech, Harvey Mudd, MIT, Reed, Swarthmore, Carleton, U Chicago, Rice, Princeton, Haverford</p>

<p>Source: Weighted Baccalaureate Origins Study, Higher Education Data Sharing Consortium</p>

63

<p>Note that Reed is on every list and is ranked # 50-something by the demi-gods at US News.</p>

64

<p>I like this list from interesteddad better....</p>

<p>OK, here's the top 100 for the most recent 10 year period. The first number is the total undergrads who went on to get a PhD or equivalent. The second number is the total number of undergrad degrees granted by each school over the 10 year period.</p>

<p>1 University of California-Berkeley 4,470 *** 56,363
2 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 3,134 *** 53,612
3 Cornell University, All Campuses 3,033 *** 33,736
4 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 2,931 *** 61,136
5 University of Wisconsin-Madison 2,667 *** 58,176
6 University of Texas at Austin 2,613 *** 73,365
7 Harvard University 2,545 *** 17,855
8 Pennsylvania State U, Main Campus 2,519 *** 79,507
9 University of California-Los Angeles 2,454 *** 54,970
10 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 2,078 *** 11,348
11 Brigham Young University, Main Campus 2,049 *** 57,165
12 University of Minnesota - Twin Cities 1,970 *** 52,518
13 Michigan State University 1,917 *** 67,393
14 Stanford University 1,894 *** 16,662
15 Yale University 1,877 *** 12,941
16 Ohio State University, Main Campus 1,876 *** 69,239
17 University of Florida 1,863 *** 57,978
18 University of California-Davis 1,829 *** 38,488
19 Texas A&M University Main Campus 1,770 *** 68,093
20 University of Pennsylvania 1,688 *** 25,853
21 Purdue University, Main Campus 1,654 *** 53,192
22 University of California-San Diego 1,624 *** 30,559
23 Rutgers the State Univ of NJ New Brunswick 1,607 *** 51,837
24 University of Maryland at College Park 1,592 *** 51,689
25 Princeton University 1,585 *** 11,101
26 University of Washington - Seattle 1,580 *** 61,290
27 Indiana University at Bloomington 1,575 *** 51,040
28 University of Virginia, Main Campus 1,567 *** 29,049
29 Brown University 1,554 *** 14,669
30 University of Colorado at Boulder 1,510 *** 41,410
31 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 1,453 *** 35,755
32 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State Univ 1,386 *** 39,199
33 University of Arizona 1,356 *** 45,998
34 Duke University 1,313 *** 15,531
35 Northwestern Univ 1,273 *** 19,770
36 University of Massachusetts at Amherst 1,265 *** 39,705
37 University of Chicago 1,263 *** 8,270
38 University of California-Santa Barbara 1,251 *** 39,182
39 University of California-Santa Cruz 1,209 *** 21,761
40 SUNY at Buffalo 1,169 *** 31,600
41 Iowa State University 1,164 *** 38,894
42 Boston University 1,144 *** 34,586
43 University of Iowa 1,138 *** 35,343
44 Florida State University 1,110 *** 51,180
45 Oberlin College 1,107 *** 7,067
46 Columbia University in the City of New York 1,101 *** 13,622
47 University of Missouri, Columbia 1,086 *** 34,660
48 University of California-Irvine 1,077 *** 29,534
49 University of PR Rio Piedras Campus 1,034 *** 22,853
50 University of Georgia 1,011 *** 45,641
51 College of William and Mary 1,005 *** 12,784
52 Arizona State University Main 985 *** 62,660
53 University of Rochester 983 *** 11,830
54 University of Notre Dame 983 *** 19,161
55 University of Nebraska at Lincoln 978 *** 28,839
56 University of Kansas, Main Campus 952 *** 33,232
57 University of Tennessee at Knoxville 951 *** 33,250
58 North Carolina State University at Raleigh 929 *** 36,418
59 University of Delaware 921 *** 30,609
60 Miami University, All Campuses 904 *** 34,763
61 Washington University 897 *** 13,887
62 University of Pittsburgh Main Campus 881 *** 31,176
63 Colorado State University 847 *** 32,432
64 Louisiana State Univ & Agric & Mechanical Col 844 *** 31,094
65 Rice University 842 *** 6,432
66 New York University 842 *** 30,099
67 University of Utah 834 *** 32,735
68 Dartmouth College 817 *** 10,684
69 San Diego State University 814 *** 50,140
70 Johns Hopkins University 805 *** 9,260
71 University of South Florida 794 *** 50,222
72 SUNY at Binghamton 793 *** 22,484
73 Auburn University, Main Campus 786 *** 37,770
74 Wesleyan University 780 *** 7,081
75 SUNY at Albany 775 *** 25,288
76 Swarthmore College 770 *** 3,657
77 Carleton College 766 *** 4,561
78 University of Connecticut 764 *** 30,443
79 Georgia Institute of Technology, Main Campus 757 *** 18,825
80 Baylor University 756 *** 21,633
81 Southern Illinois University-Carbondale 752 *** 46,872
82 SUNY at Stony Brook, All Campuses 751 *** 21,999
83 California Institute of Technology 738 *** 2,059
84 Carnegie Mellon University 736 *** 9,428
85 University of Oklahoma, Norman Campus 718 *** 23,986
86 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 712 *** 9,834
87 Tufts University 702 *** 12,422
88 Georgetown University 699 *** 15,251
89 Oklahoma State University, All Campuses 692 *** 26,724
90 University of Southern California 692 *** 32,825
91 University of Kentucky 690 *** 28,573
92 University of Cincinnati, All Campuses 687 *** 29,602
93 University of Oregon 683 *** 28,782
94 University of South Carolina at Columbia 680 *** 30,192
95 Texas Tech University 678 *** 33,142
96 University of New Mexico, All Campuses 674 *** 24,097
97 Ohio University, All Campuses 667 *** 34,167
98 Temple University 664 *** 33,342
99 University of Houston 647 *** 32,560
100 Williams College 644 *** 5,082</p>

<p>If you present numbers in a different way, you get different results.</p>

65

<p>Yeah! Go Rice! 2800 undergrads, LAC like curriculum. Yeah! Oh, sorry there. I kindof got carried away ;)

[quote]
If you present numbers in a different way, you get different results

[/quote]
Well, yes..... but TOTAL number of degrees granted isn't particularly relevent. Better to look at number of PHD's per graduate. If you look at the list, you'll notice that some huge schools only have a small number go on to get PHD's, while some little bitty LACs or U's graduate a large number that go on to get PHD's. No fair pitting David against Goliath!</p>

66

<p>dstark</p>

<p>The point being? Big schools produce more grads?</p>

67

<p>I wouldn't count number of degrees either if the number was so...small. ;)</p>

68

<p>every season,same thread,slightly different starting off point
its the old LAC vs. Large Reaearch or Public U debate.
Everyone is passionate
everyone thinks their point of view is correct
there's a school and a program for everyone
find whats best for your kid
why does someone else's choice have to be a put down?</p>

69

<p>I'm going to try and find the percentage numbers.</p>

<p>I do know that if we go by percentage, Monarch City wins. 2 graduates, 2 PHDs. ;)</p>

70

<p>Why isn't Case on that list? I thought I remember a statistic that 40% of students go on to grad school. At 4000 undergrad, that would put it at around 400/yr and over ten years, that puts its grad school numbers at around 4000.</p>

<p>Does this list count med/law school? (that could be the reason)</p>

71

<p>Again, this is from Interesteddad...</p>

<p>"Same report. Data pulled from the same source (the National Science Foundation database of doctoral grads that they've been updating since the 1920s). Same methodology, except that I kicked out schools that average under 100 undergrad degrees per year, so my lists don't include some of the music conservatories and seminaries.</p>

<p>The reports I generated just cover a more recent ten year period and my spreadsheet is sortable for various fields of study in addition to overal doctoral production.</p>

<p>Here is the top 200 for the most recent 10 year period:</p>

<p>Academic field: ALL </p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database
Percentage of graduates receiving a doctorate degree. </p>

<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law."</p>

<p>1 California Institute of Technology 35.8%
2 Harvey Mudd College 24.7%
3 Swarthmore College 21.1%
4 Reed College 19.9%
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 18.3%
6 Carleton College 16.8%
7 Bryn Mawr College 15.8%
8 Oberlin College 15.7%
9 University of Chicago 15.3%
10 Yale University 14.5%
11 Princeton University 14.3%
12 Harvard University 14.3%
13 Grinnell College 14.1%
14 Haverford College 13.8%
15 Pomona College 13.8%
16 Rice University 13.1%
17 Williams College 12.7%
18 Amherst College 12.4%
19 Stanford University 11.4%
20 Kalamazoo College 11.3%
21 Wesleyan University 11.0%
22 St John's College (both campus) 10.6%
23 Brown University 10.6%
24 Wellesley College 10.4%
25 Earlham College 10.0%
26 Beloit College 9.6%
27 Lawrence University 9.5%
28 Macalester College 9.3%
29 Cornell University, All Campuses 9.0%
30 Bowdoin College 9.0%
31 Mount Holyoke College 8.9%
32 Smith College 8.9%
33 Vassar College 8.8%
34 Case Western Reserve University 8.7%
35 Johns Hopkins University 8.7%
36 St Olaf College 8.7%
37 Hendrix College 8.7%
38 Hampshire College 8.6%
39 Trinity University 8.5%
40 Knox College 8.5%
41 Duke University 8.5%
42 Occidental College 8.4%
43 University of Rochester 8.3%
44 College of Wooster 8.3%
45 Barnard College 8.3%
46 Bennington College 8.2%
47 Columbia University in the City of New York 8.1%
48 Whitman College 8.0%
49 University of California-Berkeley 7.9%
50 College of William and Mary 7.9%</p>

<p>51 Carnegie Mellon University 7.8%
52 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7.8%
53 Brandeis University 7.7%
54 Dartmouth College 7.6%
55 Wabash College 7.5%
56 Bates College 7.5%
57 Davidson College 7.5%
58 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 7.2%
59 Franklin and Marshall College 7.2%
60 Fisk University 7.1%
61 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 7.1%
62 University of California-San Francisco 6.8%
63 Allegheny College 6.8%
64 Furman University 6.6%
65 University of Pennsylvania 6.5%
66 Washington University 6.5%
67 Bard College 6.5%
68 Northwestern Univ 6.4%
69 Rhodes College 6.4%
70 Agnes Scott College 6.3%
71 Spelman College 6.3%
72 Antioch University, All Campuses 6.2%
73 Kenyon College 6.2%
74 University of Dallas 6.2%
75 Ripon College 6.1%
76 Colorado College 6.1%
77 Bethel College (North Newton, KS) 6.1%
78 Hamilton College 6.0%
79 Goshen College 6.0%
80 Middlebury College 6.0%
81 Erskine College 6.0%
82 University of the South 5.9%
83 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 5.8%
84 Drew University 5.8%
85 Wake Forest University 5.8%
86 Tougaloo College 5.8%
87 Goucher College 5.8%
88 Chatham College 5.7%
89 Cooper Union 5.7%
90 Alfred University, Main Campus 5.7%
91 Tufts University 5.7%
92 University of California-Santa Cruz 5.6%
93 Colgate University 5.6%
94 Colby College 5.5%
95 Bucknell University 5.4%
96 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 5.4%
97 Concordia Teachers College 5.4%
98 University of Virginia, Main Campus 5.4%
99 Sarah Lawrence College 5.3%
100 Southwestern University 5.3%</p>

<p>101 Centre College 5.3%
102 University of California-San Diego 5.3%
103 Austin College 5.3%
104 Trinity College (Hartford, CT) 5.2%
105 Scripps College 5.2%
106 Clark University 5.2%
107 Hope College 5.1%
108 University of Notre Dame 5.1%
109 Connecticut College 5.0%
110 Luther College 5.0%
111 College of the Holy Cross 4.9%
112 Ohio Wesleyan University 4.9%
113 Juniata College 4.9%
114 Wittenberg University 4.9%
115 Transylvania University 4.9%
116 Asbury College 4.8%
117 Calvin College 4.8%
118 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 4.8%
119 Colorado School of Mines 4.8%
120 University of California-Davis 4.8%
121 Vanderbilt University 4.7%
122 Berea College 4.7%
123 Randolph-Macon Woman's College 4.7%
124 Millsaps College 4.7%
125 Union College (Schenectady, NY) 4.7%
126 University of Wisconsin-Madison 4.6%
127 Georgetown University 4.6%
128 St John's University (Collegeville, MN) 4.6%
129 Hiram College 4.5%
130 Illinois Wesleyan University 4.5%
131 University of PR Rio Piedras Campus 4.5%
132 Augustana College (Sioux Falls, SD) 4.5%
133 Andrews University 4.5%
134 University of California-Los Angeles 4.5%
135 Coe College 4.4%
136 Hanover College 4.4%
137 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 4.4%
138 Benedictine College 4.4%
139 Lafayette College 4.4%
140 Texas Lutheran University 4.4%
141 DePauw University 4.3%
142 Mills College 4.3%
143 Pitzer College 4.3%
144 Cornell College 4.3%
145 Emory University 4.3%
146 Denison University 4.3%
147 Stevens Institute of Technology 4.3%
148 Eckerd College 4.3%
149 Gustavus Adolphus College 4.2%
150 Oklahoma Baptist University 4.2%</p>

<p>151 Augustana College (Rock Island, IL) 4.2%
152 Lewis and Clark College 4.2%
153 Dickinson College 4.1%
154 University of Missouri, Rolla 4.1%
155 Birmingham Southern College 4.1%
156 Ursinus College 4.1%
157 University of Tulsa 4.1%
158 Monmouth College 4.1%
159 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 4.1%
160 Tulane University 4.1%
161 Alma College 4.0%
162 Washington and Lee University 4.0%
163 Ouachita Baptist University 4.0%
164 Georgia Institute of Technology, Main Campus 4.0%
165 Long Island University Southampton Campus 4.0%
166 St Lawrence University 4.0%
167 Lehigh University 4.0%
168 SUNY College of Environmental Sci & Forestry 3.9%
169 Albion College 3.9%
170 Centenary College of Louisiana 3.9%
171 Principia College 3.9%
172 Manchester College 3.9%
173 Union College (Lincoln, NE) 3.8%
174 Gettysburg College 3.8%
175 Chestnut Hill College 3.8%
176 Houghton College 3.8%
177 Spring Hill College 3.8%
178 Lake Forest College 3.8%
179 Wofford College 3.8%
180 University of Minnesota - Twin Cities 3.8%
181 Albertson College 3.7%
182 SUNY at Buffalo 3.7%
183 Willamette University 3.7%
184 Hobart William Smith Colleges 3.7%
185 Hamline University 3.7%
186 University of California-Irvine 3.6%
187 University of Colorado at Boulder 3.6%
188 Walla Walla College 3.6%
189 Hastings College 3.6%
190 Muhlenberg College 3.6%
191 Maryville College 3.6%
192 Westmont College 3.6%
193 Valparaiso University 3.6%
194 Trinity College (Washington, DC) 3.6%
195 Brigham Young University, Main Campus 3.6%
196 University of California-Riverside 3.6%
197 Albright College 3.6%
198 Whitworth College 3.6%
199 Bethany College (Bethany, WV) 3.6%
200 University of Texas at Austin 3.6%</p>

72

<p>Reed's ranking from USNWR, looks a little low.</p>

73

<p>cathymee</p>

<p>I couldn't agree more. I've gone to every kind of school. I was motivated to learn and they were all great. I'm only hanging out here because I'm addicted and pathetically marking time beween visits to the mailbox. I know; just sad... I could be folding laundry instead.</p>

74

<p>
[quote]
Reed's ranking from USNWR, looks a little low.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No kidding. It's not like producing PhDs is the be-all and end-all, but I think it's a legitimate index of academic atmosphere and seriousness.</p>

<p>Some other shockers: Kalamazoo (a CTCL, no?), Columbia, Dartmouth, and Penn (which at least has the excuse that very few Wharton grads are going to be interested in PhDs, but cf. Cornell), Georgetown . . .</p>

75

<p>If I recall, Reed:
1) doesn't play the USNWR game and has paid for it in the rankings (not that they care)
2) is the only undergrad college in the country with a working nuclear reactor.</p>

<p>a mom of likely LAC math/CS major</p>

76

<p>Amen cathymee!! Oh shoot I said amen again. I will probably get banned. This is the second thread I have said that on. (I will say my three political correctness hail marys and repent)</p>

<p>Seriously, I know my son will thrive at a school where the professors are approachable, where classes are small and not taught by grad students. Others may feel very comfortable at a large research school.</p>

77

<p>bethievt</p>

<p>If you get motivated to fold your laundry and you still want more to fold..............nah, you are probably too far away</p>

78

<p>Cathymee: Well said.</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
Seriously, I know my son will thrive at a school where the professors are approachable, where classes are small and not taught by grad students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>"thrive'</p>

<p>Now, there's a concept!</p>

<p>My son preferred a smaller college as well - not because he "needed" a small setting or would feel "lost" in a public university. He loves the feeling one gets from residential living in a close-knit community. His courses are challenging and writing intensive, with ongoing feedback from his professors, as they have time to evaluate their students' work. His inspiration for learning comes from close association with knowledgeable mentors and engaged students. This was an educational choice based on what would give him the kind of education we wanted for him.
He could have taken the Regent's scholarship at one of our state schools, but we urged him to go to the LAC that he was really excited about. We took out a loan to help make it happen.</p>

<p>I guess we have no sense and no money!</p>

80

<p>

How can that be? They have no endowment. They don't require SATs. The stats HAVE to be lying!!!!! ;)</p>