When people don't vaccinate their kids

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2161

I’m not sure I see the old CP parties as so terrible or stupid. When I was growing up, 100% of the people I knew got CP at some point. It wasn’t a question of whether, but when. Since everyone also thought that the older you were, the worse a childhood disease is, it seems to me it was pretty logical for a caring parent to want to time the CP so it didn’t keep the child out of school, and the family would be best prepared to clear their calendar to care for the child.

Edited to add: actually it looks like you’ve got a case of mumps now, Hunt!

2162

That was my reaction when my boyfriend got it as an adult – I was like - your father was a freakin’ doctor and they didn’t ensure you got c pox as a kid? What’s wrong with you people? I’m sure I held it against my ILs for a long time :slight_smile:

2163

Speaking of childhood illnesses being worse when you get them as an adult, I couldn’t get the smallpox vaccine until I was in my teens. I got the vaccination as soon as the doctor cleared me but after the school year ended. They waited until school ended because I was really, really sick. I was in bed about 10 days, and never felt so sick before or since. And that was just the vaccine. Can you imagine what the actual disease is like.

2164

^^^If you google smallpox and see the photos, it will probably give you nightmares.

2165

My point is that “patriotism” is defined as love of, or devotion to, or loyalty to country.
Fellow feeling for one’s countrymen is a distinct, different feeling. For many people these overlap.
However, of you imagine a dispossessed people, or exiles, or immigrants - some of them may have fellow feelings for their countrymen but may have mixed or no feelings of patriotism for their original country.
From my reading of your comments, what you are describing as patriotism is actually distinct of either of the above - you are using the argument of it being an act required for the greater good and calling that patriotism. That’s a whole other discussion.

Back to vaccinations. Getting vaccinated may be considered a civic duty, but it hardly rises to the level of a patriotic act, in my opinion. Acts of patriotism are done for love of country, frequently at personal sacrifice. Serving in the military, or serving on a jury. Paying taxes - meh, I guess to the extent that those taxes actually are used to benefit one’s country and not on boondoggles.

If you call getting a vaccination a patriotic act on behalf of the safety of other citizens, there is an implication that this is a duty that ought to be undertaken even if it is a sacrifice. Even if it causes a negative medical reaction, as long as it benefits other citizens. Even if it is a new experimental vaccine, as long as it benefits other citizens. So it’s rather a ridiculous argument.

I think it would be more effective to argue that getting vaccinated is a form of enlightened self-interest in that it protects oneself and protects others. Not getting vaccinated is selfish, I agree with that. For some it is a necessary, life-saving selfishness, if they are allergic to the vaccine ingredients. For others it is misguided selfishness based on fear.

2166

I read the other day that if somebody were able to get hold of smallpox and release it in four US cities, it could kill three million people.

2167

measles outbreak at Chicago daycare

http://news.yahoo.com/five-babies-suburban-chicago-daycare-center-measles-report-180024713.html;_ylt=A0LEV1dMu9NUYvsAWHBXNyoA

2168

I also got c pox as an adult - I was exposed to it numerous times as a child and never came down with it. Missed a semester of college. Also never had mumps or rubella but vaguely remember having measles and sleeping in a dark room during the day because the light was so painful. That is a horrible illness.
Had the rubella vaccination as an adult but when I asked the doc about getting a mumps vaccination was told they don’t give it - only the MMR. Haven’t had the shingles vac, only because a friend who also had c pox as an adult became quite sick after having it (presumably from the vaccine) and am hoping to find out if that’s an isolated incident or whether others who had c pox as adults have a more extreme reaction to the shingles vac. My doc didn’t know.

2169

I got vaccinated for smallpox in school when I was a kid. It was fun comparing scabs with classmates and avoiding arm punches.

2170

The pox parties are an old idea. My parents had me play with a friend when she had chicken pox… it’s what (pre-vaccine era) you did to try to get a child to get it before they were an adult (when the cases tend to be more severe). It seems strange now, though, but it really was common.

While I honestly believe that healthy children should all get vaccinated, I think it’s tough to make a law to that effect. I think that now allowing unvaccinated kids in schools (unless there is a REAL medical reason) and doctors not wanting unvaccinated patients in their practice its he way to go. I do believe in herd immunity, but I’m not ready to say that parent’s shouldn’t have any choice in this. And yes, I made sure my D was properly vaccinated. And I worry most about those kids who can’t be vaccinated, along with the small percent who were and who somehow did not become immune.

2171

Some confusion wrt cpox:
Varicella=cpox the disease
Varivax= the first vaccine’s brand name

Shingles is from having cpox virus laying dormant in nerve roots in people who have had cpox.
You do not catch shingles from anyone. Cpox vulnerable people can get cpox from people with shingles, but not shingles.
The vaccine is indeed protective for shingles (statistically. The cohort of kids who received varivax when it came out (aroung 1993) are now reaching adulthood and they have a lesser incidence of shingles but we will see what happens as they age.
Good question about why cpox is so much worse in older kids and adults. The incidence of bad outcomes has always been higher in older patients (even before the vaccine). I don’t know why; I’m sure an Infectious Disease specialist or epidemiologist might be able to tell us.

I’m not certain a million people would die from a smallpox outbreak (though I don’t want to find out). We now have good antiviral meds and quick and cooperative virology research (remember the world’s quick resonse to SARS) and I think it would not be as catastrophic as the worst-case scenario. Let’s not find out.

2172

By the way, please note that a significant number of those infected with measles who were not vaccinated were infants, who are not allowed to get the measles vaccine until at least 12 months old. Some news stories are glossing over that fact. The latest daycare outbreak is exactly that.

Antiviral medications tend to be specific for the illness, though antiherpes medicines work well on chicken pox and shingles as well, Tamiflu is specific for flu.

Viruses are VERY interesting, and can be quite different from each other. Polio basically looks like a soccer ball; the coating protects the genetic material.

Also note that there were thousands of measles cases in the late 1980s. The CNN graphic that showed “outbreaks” did not show “number of cases”. Two different animals, and why I had to get re-vaccinated while in college in the late 1980s or I couldn’t return to classes.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001454.htm

Current numbers which are making everyone freak out:
http://www.newsweek.com/january-2015-saw-more-measles-cases-all-2012-304089

I don’t like anti-vaxxers, but people who don’t vaccinate base on science and their or their child’s medical status are getting bad raps too. Everything has to be black and white, you vaccinate your kids 100% of what big pharma recommends or you are evil filth. It’s not that easy, and mass media wants to link anti-vaxxers to these outbreaks.

Until the science catches up to why these outbreaks occur, or the press is honest about whether it really is “yeah, it’s really bouncing around between infants who cannot be vaccinated and a handful of vaccinated older children”.

Remember this started at Disney:

  • Disney doesn’t require people to vaccinate their children before they enter the park
  • Disney has a high number of international guests
  • Disney has people packed in together very tightly

I think this “hysteria” is out of hand, and other than quarantining which they are doing, and possibly requiring children of a certain age getting revaccinated, the rest of us shouldn’t be wringing our hands.

I also think declaring measles “eradicated in the US as of the year 2000” is pretty much bull, based on thousands of cases in the late 1980s. You don’t eradicate a disease in that short amount of time. What may have happened is that with the mass revaccination campaign, we did push down measles cases quite a bit. And now perhaps we do need revaccination again, IF the “outbreak” gets bigger. France went down to double digits and back up to five digits for number of measles cases.

As for shingles and chicken pox and the vaccine for chicken pox not giving some kind of shingles immunity, I think that is bull with no scientific basis. What happens to many kids who get the chicken pox vaccine is that they get a very mild case of chicken pox when they are exposed to a kid who has the full-blown version, and that does give them more immunity anyway. If a kid does not get chicken pox, they have the antibodies already. And you don’t get shingles unless you have immunity to chicken pox!

2173

^?? That last paragraph? Doesn’t make sense. Vaccinated kids (any kids) run into full blown wild type cpox much less often these days, so that could def NOT be the mechanism of immunity in vaccinated kids.

Tamiflu is an antiviral medication, a neuramidase inhibitor. It is licensed for influenza, but in theory may be useful for other viruses. It just hasn’t been FDA approved for other viruses, and since we don’t run trials for smallpox, the common cold, etc, we don’t know if it would work for other viral illnesses. But there’s no reason to believe it wouldn’t, and even if not, with today’s technology, figuring out viral genomes quickly gives us lots of help in adapting antiviral meds to other viruses. It’s true that viruses come in a huge variety of types.

2174

I was just about to post re the Palatine outbreak, @partyof5‌ . Looks like the flat-earthers aren’t confined to Southern California.

2175

Yes, the outbreak started at Disney. They can start anywhere. But with a core % vaccinated, an epidemic can be stopped in its tracks. When that core is not there, it doesn’t.

Woman has daughter with epilepsy suspected to have started with vaccines, so that child is not vaccinated. Okay, so she gets the measles. But that her two brothers with no issues other than the fears of the mother who are also not vaccinated get exposed and then are out there in the community is where the problem starts to increase exponentially.

2176

The Palatine area doesn’t strike me as the stereotype of the Whole Foods crunchy granola holistic mommies, but I could be mistaken.

Apropos of nothing, this is amusing – the connection to this thread is in the last few lines.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/jamie-and-jeffs-birth-plan

2177

Maybe this is just poorly written, but it also makes very little sense to me. I’m not even sure exactly what this poster is saying.

2178

PG, it’s not just granolas who don’t like the idea of vaccinations. It’s also the anti-government types who think vaccines are part of a plot to take away their freedom.

2179

Washington State has lots of both. The far left and the far right wrap around the back and meet up again. Fun times.

2180

OMG that birth plan blog is HYSTERICAL. I hope it is 100% a parody, but I have a feeling there are grains of accuracy in it.

Speaking of diseases that are worse when you are an adult. . . I somehow escaped getting both Chicken Pox and Fifth Disease as a child. My mom kept me in a cocoon I guess. I got the c pox vaccine myself, but I caught Fifth Disease from my kids. They were sick for a day, mild fever, lacy rash. I was sick for over a week. Every joint ached like I had the worst arthritis, my knuckles swelled up, I had a rash all over. I could hardly go up and down the stairs.

Then my MOM got it (she evidently escaped it during her own childhood and mine). It triggered an autoimmune disorder in her, temporal arteritis. A side effect of which is an aortic aneurysm! So a couple of years ago she had to have major open heart surgery to repair her aorta.

All from a “minor” kids illness.