<p>Yeah, but dt, bridge is soooo much better for them than games. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>;)</p>
<p>Ari clearly you are hell bent on your feelings, and thats what makes our world go round. I am confident in my own beliefs that there is virtually nothing redeeming whatsoever about playing this games, ensconsed in a room, alone typically and banging away at the keyboard for hours on end. It fosters a sense of lonliness, and the sad thing is the kids get use to it and come to like it. It does nothing for social skills which are vital to every child. My own son lost his girlfriend because all he wanted to do was play and several of his friends lost interest in him because he was often more interested in playing then hanging. With sports, you are in the great outdoors, you are typcially under the sun breathing in fresh air, interacting with peers on some level, not interacting via a computer chip. You walk away after an hour or two and move on to other proactive activities, grabbing a slice of pizza with your teamates, whatever..........sports are a short lived and short termed mental and physcial break whereas the games sort of suck you in and it can almost never be for an hour here or there, its seveal marathon like hours of solitude. I find it depressing. I support all four of my kids with virtually any and everything they want to do from chess, soccer, trumphet,to a debate team, with each of those I can find at least one or two ideal pros, with this game playing there is NONE.</p>
<p>well hey.. that's your opinion kelly.. everyones going to differ on this matter, i just can't even begin to imagine just how un-open minded many of you are on this subject... </p>
<p>maybe your son should of dated a girl who likes games then... then they could of played together. and if his friends have problems with him playing a game, then i guess they aren't true friends. time to find new ones. what about indoor sports like.. bowling.. and if a game sucks you in that easily, then it's your fault.. not the game. </p>
<p>this whole thread reminds me of the drinking thread.. you guys are always looking at something to point the finger at.. rather than the person doing the drinking/gaming..</p>
<p>Oh my!
Reading these last dozen or so posts, I could not help think of the same lines used by others: "I know when to quit". and basically: "Don't criticize what you've never tried". </p>
<p>I would say the same is true for alcohol. Unfortunately we CC readers have seen the disastrous results of what can happen if not kept in moderation. I think the OP and others are concerned that with some, game playing has gone on far beyond a moderate level! It is the lack of moderation that is so dangerous. It is also the extreme time sink. I do not think that many teens truly see the problem. It is from the adult perspective that we worry about the time it wastes. (Perhaps because we have less time left and value it more highly?)</p>
<p>yes kjofkw!!!! Moderation is key to life in general isn't it?!!! When you can't be moderate, it's best to walk away from the situation.</p>
<p>I do find positive things about the game...absolutely...but when my son yesterday went to walk the dog out in the gorgeous sunshine and says "what am I doing stuck at the computer for hours when the weather is so beautiful"...something is wrong. If you can limit yourself to a few games a week - that is fabulous, if you can't control it - walk away.</p>
<p>As far as the positives...my son can out type any secretary around...he is unbelievable on AutoCad (computer drafting) because of his amazing dexterity at using the keyboard and mouse simultaneously...he can multi-task like crazy...as a clan leader, he's learning patience (teaching new players), organization skills, mediating quarrels, he's basically learned a new language (I can only understand about 1 word in every sentence he speaks), he's an excellent strategist...all fabulous skills he can apply to real life. . My biggest concern is the addiction - when he questions what he is doing and how it's not as much fun as it used to be - I feel alot better and know he's on the right track...till of course they come out with the next expansion.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ari clearly you are hell bent on your feelings, and thats what makes our world go round. I am confident in my own beliefs that there is virtually nothing redeeming whatsoever about playing this games, ensconsed in a room, alone typically and banging away at the keyboard for hours on end.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This has nothing to do with me being hellbent on my feelings. This has to do with the so-called adults on this forum being adults for once. Just because YOU don't enjoy games doesn't mean that they don't have any redeeming value. </p>
<p>What makes movies or TV any better than gaming? The fact that they've been around longer?</p>
<p>
[quote]
It does nothing for social skills which are vital to every child. My own son lost his girlfriend because all he wanted to do was play and several of his friends lost interest in him because he was often more interested in playing then hanging.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>WoW made my girlfriend and I even closer (if that's possible) because we could interact even when we weren't together. Does that mean that WoW is good for relationships? No. It means that it is whatever the player makes of it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
sports are a short lived and short termed mental and physcial break whereas the games sort of suck you in and it can almost never be for an hour here or there, its seveal marathon like hours of solitude
[/quote]
</p>
<p>YOU ARE NOT ALONE WHEN YOU PLAY. Why don't people get this? You interact with other people!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find it depressing. I support all four of my kids with virtually any and everything they want to do from chess, soccer, trumphet,to a debate team, with each of those I can find at least one or two ideal pros, with this game playing there is NONE.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How about the improved skill at using a computer? Improved typing skills. Improved multitasking. Development of spatial reasoning. Development of teamwork skills. Development of strategic thinking skills.</p>
<p>I guess these are all useless.</p>
<p>You know what's funny to me? None of the parents I know would bat an eyelash if their child stayed inside and studied for hours on end so they can get good grades (and therefore the parent can brag.) But God forbid the kid plays video games, and the parents talk about how they "never go outside" and "don't socialize." </p>
<p>I've made more friends through my gaming (both online and offline) than anything else. My friends and I have a blast sitting down, cracking open a couple sodas, and just having a fragfest for a couple hours in Halo or doing an instance in WoW.</p>
<p>Maybe if half the parents got past the fact that we're not in the "Pong" generation, they'd realize how social many games actually are.</p>
<p>UCLAri, what a joke, my man. Try as much as you can, there's no way to redeem gaming. It's a time drain. </p>
<p>"Improving social skills"</p>
<p>ROFL! By playing halo with 12-year old kids going through puberty? By substituting online anonymity for real-life interaction?</p>
<p>There are much better things one can do with their time. BTW, don't think so highly of your gaming prowess when all you play are the mainstream kiddy titles.</p>
<p>UCLAri - I agree with you, in terms of the value of games. The value of an activity is a very subjective thing. </p>
<p>Your comments about spending hours studying is great point. If most parents paused for a minute and thought about it, they would agree with you, at least in part. (You have to realize that 'we' parents have our hang-ups, and our dysfunctional aspects, as well). Probably 90% of the parents would have no problem with their son/daughter studying for hours on end. (In the favor of those parents, just briefly, I do have to concede that "studying" is part of the student's "job" - as i put it. I earn the money, pay for the house, car, education, etc. My son's job is to get good grades. No cotract or anything, just common sense). However, back to your point, yes, most of us parents would be thrilled if our son/daughter worked from the time they get home from school until 11pm doing homework. But, if that time was spent on online games - then we are upset or worried. In terms of external socializing (being away from the house, and participating in one-on-one interaction), neither gaming nor studying involves outside socializing. </p>
<p>I don't wish to veer off-subject, but I also find it intriguing how many parents put no bounds or limits on the number of hours spent in athletics.</p>
<p>I could start an entire thread on youth athletics. For the value that can be gained from it (good excercise, working together for a common goal, lessons of winning and losing, meeting friends, learning leadership, etc. etc), I have found that there is almost more negative aspsects in youth sports. </p>
<p>Let's see if i can correctly sum it up. So long as your child is a starter and a good player, there are no problems. And if there are any player problems/issues on the team, then the problems are obviously the fault of the problem child (or his/her parents). But then, when you child is no longer a starter, or no longer an allstar, no longer picked for the traveling team, then how quickly the coach(es) become "the problem". And, at times, those parents whose kids are still the starters, and who used to be your close friends, suddently seem more distanced.</p>
<p>I coached 2 different sports. And my son played 3 sports. Without going into too many details, I experienced both sides of the coin. And it really was ugly, on both sides of the coin. Unbelievable. As coach(es), we would receive unbelievable nasty coments - primarily from parents and often in front of their child. And I was the type of coach who went out of my way to play all players - for the sake of fairness due to the fact that the players took the time to show up and practice. Yet, far too many of the players (with lower skill levels) and their parents, had horrible attitudes. (not all of them, but a lot of them). On the other side, as my son was losing interest, but was still playing baseball, the treatment from certain coaches, parents, and players, was, at times, unbelievable. It was an attitude of 'what have your done for me lately'. And, if the latest results were not top dog, then, at times, you were treated as a lessor person. (not all coaches/parents were this way, but a child athlete should never be treated as a lessor person based on their performance). Gee, what a great lesson to teach our kids. "If you perform well, I will treat you well, and respect you. But, if you make a mistake, or just don't quite measure up to the better players, then you probably won't hear many positive comments from me, or from other players. ( I am over-generalizing for the sake of making the point, which is a very important point)</p>
<p>It just amazes me, how often the above scenarios occur. I have known many parents with child athletes, and they sing the praises of the sport, the coach, the team, until "their" son/daughter is the one who did not make the allstars or the traveling team, and then how quickly they turn into angry non-supporters of the sport, the coach, the team, the other parents, etc. For some, it was a year or two in sports, for others the enthusiam may last until high school sports, or up until varsity level. </p>
<p>I am just thankful that my son stopped playing because he became interested in other things, not because of the coach's treatment. By the time he was receiving shoddy treatment, he had (mentally/emotionally) already left the team. It was me who encouraged him to play one more year, and then I (a bit slow) realized that he was no longer interested.</p>
<p>Why do i even bring this up? I guess because i wonder which is worse? To spend hours in an online game. Or, to spend years in sports, and, at times, develop some very immature attitudes towards other people. (for those who will defend sports, and there will surely be hundreds, I admit, i concede, that my point is NOT universal. There are many great teams, and coaches, who never act this way. However, if your child has played sports long enough, then you have most likely seen this aspect at one time or another. </p>
<p>My son had one bad baseball season, with one bad coach. The coach hated it when the team lost. There was one game when the coach yelled at the kids after the team lost, and called them all losers. I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish in his rant, but he did end up with half the boys crying on the bench - and these were teenagers. (I was not a coach on this team, and there was a couple of us fathers who were just about ready to go into the dugout and see what it took to make the coach cry. We didn't. We quietly took our boys home, and told them that they were winners, in spite of what the coach told them. The team may have lost the game, and that was unfortunate, but each and every boy on the team was a winner - if you know what i mean. Maybe sports do teach our youth about adulthood.</p>
<p>You should stop play it when your grades go down.</p>
<p>
[quote]
YOU ARE NOT ALONE WHEN YOU PLAY. Why don't people get this? You interact with other people!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't have particularly strong feelings about gaming as my kids aren't into it, but I hope gamers will consider that the interaction is definitely at a remove. </p>
<p>I have the same complaint about kids who text each other on their cellphones during a party, instead of walking over an talking to their friend. I remember the time I drove a bunch of kids to an out of town activity and each had on their individual ipod for the car ride. What about sharing music on car rides with friends? Even walkmans did not prevent this-- it is the utter customization of the ipod playlist that makes the ipod a wall when a walkman was not.</p>
<p>Electronic devices are nifty but often isolating.</p>
<p>"and to xiggi, it's Curt Shilling... not Kurt.</p>
<p>I think people who are doing this bashing really don't know because they haven't played. Nobody forces you to sit there and play a game for 24 hours. I have an account on WOW and i play it once every blue moon.. when I"m bored. Not everyone who plays things like that are "addicted". "</p>
<p>Thanks for the correction about Curt. I am afraid my online spellmaster failed me. Our world is now better for knowing it is Curt and not Kurt. </p>
<p>As far as "people not knowing because they have not played", isn't that a bit of a generalization? Does someone have to have started playing EQ or WOW Beta -or even before- to have an opinion about the possible negative effects of playing the various games? Does someone have to talk to John Smedley or know that Jeff Kaplan and Rob Pardo were LOS' Tigole and Ariel to have an opinion? </p>
<p>Your online contacts have worked well for you. Good for you! However, you cannot assume that others with similar -if not better and lengthier contacts within the industry- share your opinion, especially about the game's appeal to the casual or high-end gamer.</p>
<p>Wow clearly we are a divided group. Look, to be fair with anything in life, if it done with true enjoyment, passion and most importantly in moderation of some sort, there is nothing wrong with just about anything, barring anything illegal. I grew up in a very progressive household with two professors as parents who didn't allow TV's in our house until I was 17!! This whole movement and technological wonder world we are a part of part frightens and fascinates me at the same time. The idea that he is playing with people all over the world is amazing in itself, it is just the amount of time that is involved in playing this and "moving up in the ranks". I just think he also seemed happier with himself, when he was on the baseball and basketball team, worked out in a gym, socialized more etc..........again this is MY son, i am not referring that every other kid has had the same experience. It is my opinion that anything over 11/2 hours a day is excessive. If he could limit it to that time period, I would be FINE with this, its just the addictive quality that scares me a bit. And don't act like you don't know what I am talking about,Ari! I am doing my darnest to be rational and logical here but don't tell me these games are not downright addicting. I have heard so many parents refer to the "fix" their child must have when the game/computer was removed from there accessability. Come on...........surely you can agree with that.
There is no denying that this has become a billion dollar industry and I am aware of the growing mania and glorification of "professional gamers" who travel the world, rake in big money and achieve cult like status. I know its only the beginning. I just want my son to aspire for what I think he is capeable of and passionate about....business. I don't want a silly game to curtail his thinking or vision for his future. When I see it getting in the way of his studies, his seriousness of school, his social life...I DO think that is a problem and the common thread with all us parents who "don't know any better" is that we see the wilting process of our children and its quite disturbing. I will end this by saying while I respect everyones opinion, I truly believe this is a crisis of sorts as its affecting hordes of kids today and the gaming industry has some responsibility to bear much the way the music/movie industry does for the crap that is often put out aimed at our youth. When all of this was not filtered into our kids lives, kids went outside, played came in did homework, ate with their family and called it a day. Now the gaming/video game/computer craze has created mini hermits who take meals by their screens and have minimal contact with even their own families. To me, thats not an ideal world...we are moving in the wrong direction!</p>
<p>UCLA has it right - playing games for hours on end is no different than having a kid that sits and watches TV for hours or reads for hours. In fact, I think they gain a lot more from interacting with others through the game then they might in lots of other venues.</p>
<p>The key is to make sure that the gaming doesn't overrule the person's life to the exclusion of things like school, work or friends.</p>
<p>This is no easy thread. </p>
<p>UCLAri - I agree a lot with UCLAri (and therefore my post above, about 5 posts up).</p>
<p>kellyconn1 - i also agree with you enough, that I also posted (earlier) in this thread my suggestions for CyberPatrol. It has Time Mgt, and access control capabilites. </p>
<p>As for your comments about it being a problem/crisis: (Without agreeing or disagreeing on that point), I will say that we will find out a few years, maybe several years, down the road, to what degree it is a problem, or a non-issue, or something in-between. It definitely is a change in behavior. However, I don't think that we can conclusively state that the change is negative, positive, or neutral.</p>
<p>As for spending time outside, I could write a book about what I did, with my friends, when i was a kid. Every day outside: Hide & seek, 3 flies up, over-the-line baseball games; rode our bikes everywhere; climbed trees, etc. etc. etc. </p>
<p>HOWEVER, lest i (or we) think that "our" days only consisted of outdoor activities, I ALSO remember, with great fondness, many episodes of Gilligan's Island, Leave it to Beaver, I Love Lucy, Father Knows Best, etc. etc. And, there is probably a LONG list of Roadrunner cartoons and Felix the Cat shows that I would remember the story lines to. (i think that your post indicated that your folks did not bring in a TV, till you were 17. You were definitely the exception on that one, and i think that you would agree on that). Most of us, that remember ALWAYS playing outside, also remember a lot of TV shows. There had to be some overlap. </p>
<p>Lastly, I do remember when Atari came out, and many endless hours of Space Invaders, Asteroids, and other such games. Am i the only one who played those games?</p>
<p>We have to IM my daughter to tell her that dinner is ready. Just kidding.</p>
<p>UCLAri
I totally disagree w/ your post #87.
In fact, I do know parents who are equally concerned when ALL their child does is study! Balance is the key!</p>
<p>Hello CC</p>
<p>Ive been trolling here for awhile and have some WoW experience so decided to post.</p>
<p>Our 13 year old, 8th grade son has been playing WoW since its 23 November 2004 release date. In the spirit of if you cant beat em, join em, I play also. A few ideas to make your childs excursions in the World of Azeroth (WoWs planet) more bearable:</p>
<p>1) Monitor his time played with the /played command. The command reports a characters total played time in days, hours and minutes. Note that this is for that one characters time, if your account has a main toon and several alts you need to sum all the toons /played amounts. In my sons case, he has 34 days played, which is about 7% of the 485 days since the games release, or about 1 hour, 40 minutes of daily play time. I gave my son these numbers and his response had two points. First, he watches essentially no TV, secondly, his big sister wastes a lot more time then that on IM and/or listening to her IPOD.</p>
<p>2) A big problem with end-game (anyone lvl 60) WoW is that the 40-man instance runs (Molton Core, Black Wing Lair, and AhnQiraj 40-man) take a long time, easily 4-6 hours. Also, the most intense time of the run is at the end, where the raid group is marshalling all its resources to beat the last boss my sons guild is currently stuck on Firemaw in BWL. DCing (disconnecting) at this point of the run is very poor WoW etiquette, and a sure way to get thrown out of a guild if it happens with any frequency. We allow our son one long run a week on Sunday afternoon, which is basically open-ended to allow him to stay for the entire run. The rest of the week he is limited to one hour per day.</p>
<p>3) Try to make sure your son/daughter is in a good guild. The demeanor of guilds varies greatly. At one point I made my son quit a guild which I considered particularly churlish. Most established guilds have their own web sites where they schedule raid times and have forum discussions, you can get a good idea of a guilds tone here. Also, spend a few minutes watching the green guild chat scrolling in the WoW chat window this will tell you everything you need to know about a guilds character. My sons current guild has several women/girl players who have a definite moderating effect on some of the high-testosterone males.</p>
<p>All in all, Ive been pleased with my sons WoW experience. He has become an awesome typist (much the same as my daughter has via AIM) and has learned some group work/coordination skills the Ventrillo raid discussions remind me of the conference calls I engage in daily, theyre just a lot more fun. Most of all, he has learned that were serious about him doing his homework, practicing piano, and playing sports before playing his hour of WoW as a reward for being such a great kid.</p>
<p>Case in point here, folks....just today my son who attends a very prestigious east coast private school has informed me that a casual friend of his who is a junior and a "fellow gamer" has been put on academic probation because of his dip in grades and the fact that he has been on his laptop in class caught several times playing guess what.......WOW! Now i know not every kid is this addicted but this is a perfect example of how it ropes you in and addicts you to the core. I h appen to know the family who is a very fine family I might add and I know they must be mortified. I also suspect that they will nip this cold turkey and this child will probably have major withdrawals for a while but there is no way they are going to have their child kicked out over a nonsensical game. Again just an example,I am not generalizing so before you start typing away fast and furious to shoot me down, I am using this as a prime example of how addictive this game is! My son told me he is really obsessed with it and until last year made high honors, which is a 95 average or above, apparently he is gettings c's and d's!</p>
<p>"Balance is the key"</p>
<p>Absolutely .... with everything. </p>
<p>No matter what it is, if a person doesn't learn to keep things in balance (work, play, hobbies, partying, drinking, sports, etc) then trouble will spill over into his/her adult life. </p>
<p>How many of us have adult friends who have screwed up their adult lives/marriages simply because they couldn't keep their priorities straight and they let some stupid thing (hobby, sports, spending, whatever) become more important than other things. These adults should have learned this lesson as kids (their parents should have taught them). Kids who don't learn this lesson will "pay" as adults.</p>