When Tuition Is An Issue or How Much Do You Love your Kid

Parent Cafe
21

<p>You've expressed attitudes that just puzzle me. This family seems to be overly influenced by perceived prestige. If the parents have 'x' dollars for tuition, that should be that. If a kid really wants to attend schools that are hard to get into, then he needs to work on his grades. He didn't do that and now have fewer choices. I don't see how he could KNOW that the in-state education would be inferior. In fact, he's proven that he's not the best student, so why is he holding everyone else to a higher standard? He wasn't accepted at the elite colleges because he hasn't earned the spot and doesn't look like he could do the work. As for him borrowing the money, I think that students can only borrow the Stafford amount. Any other loans are in parents' names, aren't they? First year limit on Stafford is $2-3,000 which might not be enough for him. </p>

<p>Another thing to remember - we always think we're making a decision that will be in place for four years. The reality is that many things change a person's plans - academic performance, love life, illness, finances, change of mind, etc. What I would do (I wouldn't have had kid apply to this array of schools, so it's ALL academic for me) is let the kid have his choice. See how it goes for a year. Set some rules at the outset (academic expectations, summer/school year work requirements, etc) and evaluate after a year.</p>

22

<p>I personally, as a parent, would not be willing to pay one extra dime for "rah-rah" even if I otherwise had plenty of money for college. Frankly, I think the best thing for this kid's future would be to attend the instate school where there is less rah-rah to take his attention away from his education. He needs to start addressing his adult life, and developing his intellectual side has a lot more to do with that than contributing to his already well-developed athletic/rah-rah side. He might even have a better shot at the athletic teams if he is at a school where anyone ho wants to can probably play rather than a school where he would be competing with recruited athletes for field time.</p>

23

<p>Texas:</p>

<p>I'm with you there. There are too many temptations at the "school with lots of school spirit" for a student who is already too much into rah rah.</p>

24

<p>You know, I felt like a really mean mother earlier in the fall when my H & I made some pretty strict rules with our D on what we'd pay for. We knew she'd be admitted to a UC and thus this became our baseline-- $20K and a great eduction. We felt that a LAC would be superior for our D due to her style of learning and her needs, and we wanted her to be able to continue in sports (which meant D3.) But UC's set our bar for us.</p>

<p>-We said we wouldn't pay for any school in our immediate backyard.
-We said we wouldn't pay for "just any" OOS school unless it was educationally at least 'on par' with a UC education.
-We said "apply wherever you want; if you get in somewhere we won't pay for, you always can try throwing yourself on your grandparents' mercy-- but we won't pay for a 'vanity' OOS school or backyard school."
-We said, we won't pay for a "middling" school if you also get in somewhere that's really "better."</p>

<p>As a result of laying down reality early, my D applied to schools that we'd be happy to pay for, where we felt the extra expense would be worth it (a very personal decision, of course) for what she was getting. </p>

<p>She actually included one backyard school and one "vanity OOS" (just to be independent!) She understood the 'guiding light' was educational excellence, and that unless these were the only schools she was admitted to, they would not be paid for by us.</p>

<p>If this kid can get a better education at Instate U, and transfer somewhere niftier in a year, and it is cheaper-- that would certainly be my choice. </p>

<p>It's too bad the parents did not explain that the OOS U was only going to be an option if in-state U did not come through. A parent should be really clear about the family educational/money philosophy RIGHT UP FRONT-- (even if others on CC may think they are hard-a**es! ;)) It is nicer to the kid in the long run not to lead them down the primrose path.</p>

25

<p>I have seen variations on this theme so many times. My very dear friend's D graduated from a top NE boarding school. Her father and mother (divorced) had always encouraged her to apply whereever she wanted for college and that it was paid for. When the dust cleared from the college apps, she was denied at all of the "name" schools and all that was left were some very good, but less known private schools. The father refused to pay. He actually said to me, "For GT or Penn, I would pay, for no-name, forget it." Sometimes during the app process, a school might slip onto the list that the parent does not like, but it appears to me that this kid has a slew of them that don't meet the criterion the parents have set. It makes no sense that they were alternatives at all. </p>

<p>I can tell you that we let our kids pick their colleges. Not to say we did not strongly give our input, but ultimately they chose. They did not always choose wisely. If the family can only pay X amount, that is a different story, but to say, I'll pay X amount, but only for Y quality, is kind of crazy since what makes a school worth its price differes from person to person. At this point, the choices are in, and if the family can afford it, they would be best off letting the kid go there. It's more important that he starts a new life there, enjoys or hates it, gets through. Why start with a bad attitude? If he flunks out the first year, then, oh well, there will be some severe restrictions on what the parent wants to invest. But at this point, the important thing is for the kids to learn to grow up for the next 4 years and get an education doing it. The rest does not seem that important to me. I have seen parents go into conniption fits on the worthiness of a college, degree or program, and I can assure you that by the time senior year rolls around, all that counts is that he get out with that degree. Especially if you have another waiting in the wings. Let him graduate from Party school U with a basket weaving degree--he is now out and has to figure out the next step which may well be taking some more pragmatic courses while working a job that doesn't pay well. You don't want the colt fighting the rope as he goes through the paces, that is a big strike against you. Yeah, maybe he'll go to Party U and flunk out unable to juggle the party vs the academics, but it was his call. Your call, sending him to State U, and no school is bereft of the distractrions for one looking for them, is just asking for trouble cuz he didn't really want to go anyways and it was "your" idea, "I really wanted to go to Party U". Why have that card out? Give him his chance and let him fail or succeed. If you lose a year's tuition where you think you want him to go, there is little lesson learned in his brain which is where you want the learning to occur. </p>

<p>I would not always feel this way, but given the lateness of the situation and how this has already played out, and since the money is there, I think the best way to go is to let the kid pick with strict guidelines on acceptable behaviour. Getting on disciplinary or academic probations or any kind of trouble, means back to ranch.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
At this point, the choices are in, and if the family can afford it, they would be best off letting the kid go there.

[/quote]
But to me the catch is how are they going to afford it (and we do not have that info)?<br>
My kids will be able to afford to go to any school but my wife and I are going to pay a pretty heavy price for our kids to have that option ... a price we're willing to pay for a top school ... a price (retirement many-many years later) we are not willing to pay so our kids can avoid State U to attend another school with even academic environment as State U at a much higher price but where they get better parties and skiing. Is that a judgement call on our part that could be somewhat arbitrary? Sure is ... but that is what must be balanced against the years of work to save/provide a half a million bucks (in today's dollars) for 3 expensive private schools.</p>

27

<p>jamimon, </p>

<p>I completely see your point about chip on shoulder problems... that's a judgement call up to parents... But that is precisely why it seems unfair not to be explicit and prioritize the schools in the fall. The kid should have known what the rank order in his parents' minds would be. It should not occurr last moment. </p>

<p>If, theoretically, a kid gets into every school, there would be "tier" preference list for the parent. The kid should know which schools warrant the extra money in the parents' opinion, and which do not.</p>

<p>3togo, I agree with your thinking. We earned it, we saved it, we're working 10 more years to be able to retire someday... just like I reserve the right to nix $150 jeans I reserve the right to nix $40,000 sub-UC schools. i just made that clear way up front.</p>

28

<p>I guess the question becomes, who pays the price for not having researched schools well enough to end up with choices that are palatable to both kid and parent. I think the reality is - parents will always pay. As Jamimom points out, a kid going in-state trailing his bad attitude with him is headed for trouble and the parents will always be held to blame. I believe we were told the money is there - parents just don't think out of state is worth it. To continue with the 'equine' analogy, this horse is out of the barn. I'd let kid choose among his acceptances and hope for the best. Then I'd deal with failure if it comes, and maybe be a lot clearer about the options and responsibilities of kid. Ultimately, I think the parents are responsible for letting kid apply to those particular schools. The corollary to 'love your safeties' should be for the parents to know beforehand whether they're willing to pay tuition at each school kid applies to. I don't care for the attitude that 'we have money for elite' but not out of state. Those things should be worked out before applications sent. If they said "we can afford $10,000/year - to spend anywhere, I'd be more comfortable with them saying they wouldn't pay out of state. OP never said (I don't think?) whether he applied for financial aid and whether offers differed, so can we assume family doesn't qualify?</p>

29

<p>Hmmm, some good points have been raised. Much as I hate the idea of sending a party-loving kid to Rah-Rah U, I agree that it is a little late now for the parents to be waking up and defining new parameters. Wherever this kid goes, if the parents are paying, I believe it is very important for them to sit down with their son now, well before school starts, to define the academic expectations that are attached to their largesse.</p>

30

<p>I thought the parents had done so, i.e defined the expectations attached to their largesse. Granted, they let their kid apply to Rah Rah U, but they also expected him to get into a top school. He let down the side by allowing himself to be persuaded that "building up memories so you can tell stories on vacation" was more important than having a good GPA.
Maybe this is not sufficient cause to deprive him of Rah Rah U. I worry about his susceptibility to the siren song of partyyyyy. I don't know how much more expensive Rah Rah U is than the state U. For me, the extra cost is not so much an issue as the reason for wanting to attend Rah Rah U.</p>

31

<p>If we're taking votes, mine would be with the posters (Curmudgeon and others) who suggest that if the kid attends an OOS public university (Uconn? Penn State? Rutgers?) it be done with academic goals (honors program if possible, some other expectations if not). Otherwise the money is not well spent, whether or not the parents have it. Having already rejected the notion of the kid's going to a far west rah-rah public university/party school (Colorado? Oregon?) there seems to be no reason to send him to a more local one.</p>

<p>Another thought, though I don't know if it's too late. Most SUNY schools are not known (understatement) for their sports. However, SUNY Buffalo is aiming to make a name for itself (Mid-American Conference member, almost made the NCAAs) and has some good academics, for example in physical and biological sciences. Perhaps that's an alternative (not counting the weather).</p>

32

<p>I read this thread, shaking my head (maybe it's me). I don't believe that the parents have to spend "X' amount of dollars at rah, rah university to prove their love for their child. By the same token, the child should love his/her parents enough to respect the fact that there is not a money tree in the back yard and should not have to pay 5-digits to have a good time. </p>

<p>As far as I am concerned, if all he is after is a good time, let him have it on his dime. His parents have chosen to spend their dollars on his education (if he were able to have a good time while also doing well and getting a food education then that would be gravy). </p>

<p>I understand where some of you are coming from that it may be a waste of time and money to send the child to a school where he doesn't want to go and would be unhappy but it seems that son does not seem to have his priorities straight and perhaps doesn't need to go where he will be miserable. </p>

<p>If he wants to go rah, rah university so bad, then he needs to put his money where his mouth is if it means deferring a year (as there will always be a good time or party on the horizion) negotiate his deal with his parents that he will work, pay his own way the first year to prove that he can do both. If he is successful, parents can then pick up the tab.</p>

33

<p>I appreciate everyone's comments, but a couple of you have raised some issues that need clarification. The family did not apply for financial aid because they knew they wouldn't get it since their income level is right on the cusp. Both parents work -- and this is the first of four children; the second child will be going off to college in two more years.</p>

<p>The son had a mis-step first semester and seems to be paying for an attitude he assumed after he listened to some wrong advice from his football peers. He knew the deal about the "elite" vs. in-state schools and how much the out-of-state fee alone was for each of the schools he was considering. He also knew and agreed that his safety would be an in-state school. The "worth" of the in-state vs. out-of-state degree was marginal at best, to this family -- and in some respects, the in-state degree carries more "weight" or "heft", especially since he plans to stay in the area after graduation. However, the other costs of his education at an OSS were of great concern. Based on the out-of-state fee alone at three of the schools for one year, he could get almost two years of a total education package (tuition, room & board, books, etc.) from the in-state school. However, what muddied the waters was that after agreeing to the deal, the son soon realized that his chances at getting into the "elites" were fading as the football season was ending -- and only a couple of coaches were returning his calls. At the last minute when applications were due RD, he persuaded his parents that he needed to apply to a bigger school where the opportunties were greater. But it came with the caveat from the parents: just because you get into these OSS doesn't mean you're going there. They'dl look at all of their options when all the decisions were in. The decisions will all be in by the end of this week with the last of the "elites", but they want to prepare the son for what the alternatives are. Thus the quandry.</p>

<p>There may be a solution to this dilemma if the son picks up the costs of the out-of-state fee and works a part-time job which will make him learn the value of his education (and he'll take how smart he really is seriously -- and produce) and he won't have enough time to party & attend campus "social" events because he'll be working. He'll also probably have to prove himself with good grades. It's a tough love situation which, as Curmungeon said, may cause resentment on the son's part, especially when he watches all of his buddies go off to college for the times of their lives. And he's not.</p>

<p>Am sure this situation will be an on-going dilemma until the May 1st deadline to declare his intention, but in the meantime, the parents want him to know what his options are, which will be determined by this weekend. Stay tuned.</p>

34

<p>"they knew they wouldn't get it since their income level is right on the cusp".</p>

<p>This whole thread reads like a cautionary fable. By not applying for financial aid, you ensure you won't get any, nor will you get Stafford loans or work study. The only silver lining I can find to this tale is that they have three other children. I hope they've learned from this experience and that the younger ones benefit. This family seems to have made a lot of assumptions from the get go - and have hurt themselves in the process.</p>

35

<p>Personally, I wouldn't be 'selling' the automatic transfer option. Yes, they go to university to be educated, but the overall experience is hugely valuable. Posters can devalue it with the tag "rah rah" but it is a multi-dimensional experience with it's own rewards. Those rewards are dampened by a two year transfer plan. Not to mention that's a heck of long range plan for a non-long range boy.</p>

<p>But this story happened to me. I was saving my nickels when my mother announced that I could go anywhere. But I did not get into the School of Arch at Private U. At first.</p>

<p>When I did get off the waitlist.... in August (<em>cough cough</em>).... my parents LOST their minds about the cost. We had already been to State U orientation. I already had a State U roommate!</p>

<p>Meanwhile, my babysitting bosses, two attorneys, both private u grads, told me to "go for it". They promised me I would never think about the loans when I was their age. They were SO right.</p>

<p>As it turns out, my folks did have the money. When it came down ot it, they were mighty reluctant to part with it. Hey, they're human. They had a bunch of kids. They didn't know the stock market was going to perform as it did. My dad is a depression baby. He still thinks he's on the verge of going broke.</p>

<p>I asked my grandmother to intervene and she persuaded them that I could pay for part of it. My parents allowed me to go but they didn't take me (1100 miles from home), they refused to help me get there and they moaned about the cost the entire time. </p>

<p>It was a bit of a drag, but I got an amazing education and I had a great time. I moved into professional levels that would not have been possible from State U. Had I followed their admonitions, I would have had a completely different life, career, H, Ss--the works.</p>

<p>For me, this is the boy's decision. If he wants it, he can make it happen. It's just money. There are a million ways to come up with money. </p>

<p>I'm with Sybbie.</p>

<p>Now's the time to fish or cut bait.</p>

36

<p>Again....trying to make financial decision AFTER the applications are sent. This simply should not be happening. Parents should set down their parameters (finances, distance, whatever) BEFORE the applications are sent. Now...what would I do in this "after the fact" case. First of all...this has nothing whatsoever to do with how much the parents "love" their kid. Personally, if the parents had the means to send the kid to an "elite" school, if it were me, I would send the kid to the "less than elite" school. Of course, if the student rah rah's too much and parties too much, the offer would end after the first year. End of discussion. We had a somewhat similar situation with DS....we put no parameters on his college search. In the end, two schools rose to the top...one with significant merit aid, the other with nada. We told DS he could go to either school...but urged him to think of a reason why the no aid school would be better for him EDUCATIONALLY. He couldn't come up with any reasons, and went to the merit aid school...and LOVES it.</p>

37

<p>lefthandofdog, your post at #34 is "spot on". Exactly what i was thinking.
[quote]
It's a tough love situation which, as Curmungeon said, may cause resentment on the son's part, especially when he watches all of his buddies go off to college for the times of their lives. And he's not.

[/quote]
I say a lot of things , but that wasn't one of them. LOL. I'm the one blaming the whole bunch and saying a compromise is in order. BTW For the OOS fees or differential itself to be enough to provide two years' worth of total anticipated costs at in-state U. is just remarkable. The only states I see do close to that are Colorado and Vermont, UM, maybe Virginia. Most places we are looking at there is a $5-13K OOS "up". Certainly not enough to pay two years full freight. There must be a scholarship at in-state U., right?</p>

38

<p>Curmudgeon, the math for two of the schools was two years of out-of-state fees alone are almost the total package for three years of the in-state. $39K vs. $42.5K and $41.4K vs. 42.5K. The cheapest out-of-state fees was over $4K over the total in-state package. But the total costs of this OSS was well more than double of the in-state: $32.4 vs. $14.5.</p>

39

<p>"There may be a solution to this dilemma if the son picks up the costs of the out-of-state fee and works a part-time job which will make him learn the value of his education (and he'll take how smart he really is seriously -- and produce) and he won't have enough time to party & attend campus "social" events because he'll be working. He'll also probably have to prove himself with good grades. It's a tough love situation which, as Curmungeon said, may cause resentment on the son's part, especially when he watches all of his buddies go off to college for the times of their lives. And he's not."</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Having to work summers or while in college doesn't prevent one from studying or from having a good time. It does, however, tend to help students truly value their education. This particularly is true of students who might otherwise view college as just extended party time. </p></li>
<li><p>Some of his buddies who go off to college and "have the time of their lives" will be out of college and back at home by January after obtaining the grades of their college demise.</p></li>
</ol>

40

<p>collegeparent, sure enough. I went to CU's (as an example) website and found a $17,000 OOS differential. That number is higher than what my daughter's total OOS bill will be at her one state flagship. And CU looks pretty chintzy on their scholarships also. Again,it appears to be poor prior planning by your friends, if it is CU . </p>

<p>I know everyone has different priorities and I certainly don't want others telling me what mine should be but that OOS school (or any that expensive) would have never made it to D's list unless we were in-state, even if I was Bill Gates.The total OOS cost to attend CU is higher than several very good LAC's where this kid could have played ball and probably/possibly qualified for some schlarship help. 5 of D's top 10 private LAC's cost less than his party school, and she has FAR better stats.</p>

<p>Why did they reach so high financially and academically if cost was any issue to them? If I didn't know better, or if I was a conspiracy nut, I'd give some credence to the idea that the parents DID know this was a stupid plan and it was designed to keep him at the dis-liked state school. "Yeah son, how about the HYPSD lottery and Y-vonne's School of Cake Decorating down the street. Sure,fella, we'll pay for wherever you can get in." I know it didn't happen that way but that is the result, isn't it? (I know there is still one LAC decision out.) I stick with- the parents and kid get to bear this mistake equally but you can't make up $17k a year with a summer job at Pep Boys and they've already goofed up federal work-study and loans by not filing and THAT was an adult decision.</p>