When would you call the dean to complain?

Parents Forum
1

<p>I just heard from my daughter and I am sorely tempted to call the dean of academic affairs or students to complain. She did not get into the two classes within her major that she signed up for. (she is a sophomore.) She chose her college in part because she was under the impression that certain classes would be available to her as a freshman or sophomore, but now she is being told that she cannot take these classes, that there is a wait list and even juniors will be shut out. If there is such demand why aren't there more classes added? She is seriously thinking of transferring next year because she is frustrated by all this.</p>

<p>I have not interfered in her college life up to now, even though I object to certain things on campus. I am generally hands off, and my D is mature and capable, but she's still a kid whereas I am obviously an adult and paying the bills. I am a little ****ed off that we are paying all this $$ and she cannot even take the classes she wants within her declared major. I'm wondering if it might hurt or help her if I were to call. Have any of you gotten involved with anything like this or is the expectation that parents stay out of it completely? I am sure she is serious about the possibility of transferring. She's not thrilled with the school to begin with and this may just tip her over.</p>

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<p>Schools are usually pretty clear on their rules for who gets into what course and in what order. Most schools are in a money crunch this year and opening up additional courses may be difficult financially. What’s best is to always jump on signing up for courses the moment registration is opened up.</p>

<p>I’m a helicopter dad but I don’t talk to my son’s professors or the dean - I may advise him to see them on matters but I won’t go along with him or contact them in other ways.</p>

3

<p>It can’t help.</p>

<p>If you call at all, it should be to find out about the course offering situation, not to complain.</p>

4

<p>The dean? At the most extreme I might call her advisor, but in this situation I wouldn’t call at all. Schools really frown on parents calling about these things. This is a common situation in schools and a drag for sure, but if it is an upper level class then they aren’t going to bend over backwards to add an underclassman.</p>

<p>Has she spoken to her advisor and mapped out the next couple years to see if graduating on time is possible/probable? </p>

<p>I think dealing with this problem and the transferring option should be her decision. Difficult, I know. I struggle with wanting to protect/help/save my son. But I would save those interventions for serious emotional/medical/finanacial difficulties and not intervene with class selection.</p>

5

<p>What is it that you hope to accomplish by calling the dean? </p>

<p>Are you hoping that by your calling and letting them know of your frustration and how you are paying all of this money that they will toss someone out of class and magically let your D in- it ain’t gonna happen.</p>

<p>Students getting shut out of classes is nothing new. Ac BC mentioned there is a pecking order as far as who gets placed in a class, starting with graduating seniors, then juniors for whom the course is part of their major, then sophomores, etc. </p>

<p>It is not the end of the world that your D did not get into this class this term. One of the most important things that your college student will need to learn how to tentatively pull together a program is having a plan B in the event the course is closed, if it conflict with another class or it gets cancelled. </p>

<p>Even if the course is a prerequisite, she is just starting her sophomore year, and I am sure that she can take the course at a later time and still graduate on time (she may not like what her schedule will look like if she takes it at a later time or it may not fit into the “plan” that she set up for herself, but that is a different issue).</p>

<p>She can either curse the darkness or light a candle as there ar plenty of other classes she will need in order to graduate and some of those classes are probably being offered this term. Take a step back and a deep breath as she will work it out.</p>

6

<p>The only times I’ve contacted either of my S’ schools was when it was a financial matter. If there were academic issues, I encouraged them to deal with it themselves…I may have made suggestions about what to do, but I never contacted profs or deans on their behalf. With all the $$ we pay for college, it’s sometimes hard to sit back & let our kids handle things, but that’s what they have to learn to do.</p>

7

<p>I would not call either. The course of action I would coach my D through would depend on the school. Are we talking about a large U where crashing a course the first few days is possible? A small LAC?</p>

8

<p>This happened to my daughter last year. She got herself on the waiting list, and then asked to meet with an advisor in the department (as a freshman, she did not yet have an official major or belong to a department, but she found a person to talk to). </p>

<p>She talked with him about what else she could take, since her desired class was closed, and about strategies to make sure she stayed on course to graduate (Her major is comprised of sequential full-year courses). </p>

<p>Ten days later, she got an e-mail that spaces had opened up and she ended up taking the original class for her major. But thanks to the talk she had with the department person (I think it was the interim head of the dept.) she also had a backup plan, and the department was prepared to give her some flexibility too.</p>

<p>Going to a department person in a spirit of problem-solving, rather than complaint, will help your daughter work things out, and will also help her to establish good relationships with faculty and administrative staff. Anyone working at a college or university appreciates a kid who is eager to take a class!</p>

9

<p>Has your D considered going to the class on the first meeting date and asking the professor for an override? </p>

<p>Sometimes students end up dropping a class and the available seat has not shown up. Students are also no shows on the first day of class so sometimes space is available. </p>

<p>She needs to get there early, introduce herself to the professor and ask if she can sit in on the class (never interupt the class to do this).</p>

<p>If she sits in on the class an asks at the end of the class that the professor will sometimes grant an override.</p>

10

<p>Hello, mousegray,</p>

<p>It’s not clear from your post whether your daughter is trying to take classes that are normally taken by juniors and seniors, and she cannot take them as a sophomore (although she thought she could, when she picked the college), or whether she’s trying to take classes that are pre-requisites for later classes. The latter is a really important issue; the former, mainly a source of frustration.</p>

<p>At this point, most places, the budgets are largely set (and often down from last year). Adding sections is often impossible without more personnel, and hence, more money.</p>

<p>The issue has two aspects: 1) Your daughter needs to find the best schedule available to her, given the constraints. New sections might possibly open, but she probably can’t count on it. She can handle this with her advisor.</p>

<p>2) The college/university makes internal allocations of the funds that it has to various departments. Here, a letter from you could have an actual effect, at least in terms of helping students in later years (though probably not your daughter, this year). I would actually suggest sending individual, polite letters expressing your frustration to everyone from the president on down, on the academic administration line, and to the finance and operations administrators as well. If your daughter is really thinking of transferring, that would be attention-grabbing. I have heard my dean dismiss the issue of closed-out courses (when our department is requesting–or rather, pleading for–additional funding to add sections) with the comment that the students will take something else, so it’s revenue-neutral for the university. A single letter from a single parent won’t have a huge impact, but administrators who receive a few letters start to appreciate the silent frustration of many more parents, who haven’t written. It is very probable that funds could be shifted from areas that are less important or not at all important to the students. (I don’t have in mind academic areas–there is a lot of administrative spending that reflects poor decisions, to be blunt.)</p>

11

<p>^When my D couldn’t get a major class she needed because the dept. was down a couple profs due to temp leaves, she showed up every day for two weeks carrying a chair (because the sympathetic prof told her she’d let more people in if the room wasn’t full). She got in.</p>

12

<p>mousegray - your daughter should make every attempt to get these classes, including showing up for the first day and asking to be admitted. </p>

<p>Does she attend a private college? If so, I would call the Dean, not the advisor. Reason being, the Dean needs to know that there is unhappiness out there. The Dean may not even be aware there is a problem - stuff doesn’t always trickle up.
I would call and basically just say, without accusation, what you said in your op. You don’t even have to identify yourself if you don’t want to. Make it clear that YOU are unhappy as you are paying the bills. Allow your daughter to express her own feelings on the matter.</p>

13

<p>If she’s not thrilled with the school anyway, maybe she should send out of few transfer applications now so she’ll have options at the end of the year. It could be that her “complaints” about not getting into these classes is kind of her way of hinting that she wants out of there. Bring up the idea of transferring the next time you talk with her and let her take the lead on the conversation. Don’t put in your “two cents”. At this point, listen carefully and read between the lines. Remind her that it is OK to transfer and kids do it quite often. </p>

<p>Our older son went to a highly ranked small (just under 3,000) LAC for his freshman year. He found out that it was very common to be shut out of your major classes until Junior/Senior years. He transferred to a public university the following year and began taking upper level classes right away. He was never shut out of any class that he wanted to take because they seemed to have many more sections available than what the private college offered. The classes were still small—under 20. </p>

<p>PS–this wasn’t his reason for transferring. In other words, if she likes the school, she’ll find a way to work around this issue. If she’s not thrilled with the school, why not look elsewhere?</p>

14

<p>I have a friend who is a tenured professor at a state flagship university. Many students are struggling to get into classes they need and she is advising all students and parents to email the president of the university. Budget cuts have diminished the number of classes available but left lots of students with no options except classes they don’t need. She is frustrated as an advisor since she cannot help her students get into classes they need.</p>

<p>I don’t have a student in this situation and I’m glad.</p>

15

<p>I guess my degree of fury/involvement would turn on whether she can reasonably be expected to graduate in four years. One thing I discovered during campus visits is that it’s pretty difficult to graduate in four years at some schools, with just a normal bachelor’s degree and no changing of majors. They pretty much expect an extra semester or year…that makes me angry (because merit aid is for 8 semesters.)</p>

16

<p>I would be very careful of calling a Dean (or indeed, anyone else.) It suggests that your D is incompetent (which is surely not the case) but you also may discover something that you don’t want to know or hear.</p>

<p>I know many people who called irate about something or other only to discover that what they’d heard from their kid was half true or sorta true or not at all true. It is bad hearing about a screw up from your kid; it’s a lot worse hearing about it from a third party, especially when you’ve called that third party stomping and huffing and puffing.</p>

<p>Are you sure that your D followed the procedure laid out in the course catalogue? met all the deadlines? filled out the forms? put herself on the appropriate waiting list? got her advisor or the academic rep from the department to attach a note saying that she needed this course to fulfill her requirements? Or whatever???</p>

<p>you probably don’t know for sure if your D dotted the 'i’s and crossed the t’s so you are sure it’s the school’s fault. I’d be very careful before making that assumption. In most U’s, even with very rigid requirements, there are all sorts of exceptions, waivers, etc, sometimes as easy as just showing up in the professor’s office at 8 am the day before the class starts.</p>

<p>Why do kids tell their parents they got shut out of a class? Well, they weren’t awake in time to show up at 8 am so it’s easier to blame the administration, the secretary, the computer system, the provost, the department chair.</p>

<p>I’d throw this back at your D, tell her you know it’s frustrating to deal with bureaucracy but that you are confident that she will get all the classes she needs in the right sequence in order to graduate on time.</p>

<p>And then I’d back off. sometimes learning how to work the system is part of the education, and having you intervene is both counterproductive and may in fact, excacerbate the situation.</p>

<p>I cannot imagine a professor not wanting to make an exception for a student who is polite and persistent about getting into an oversubscribed class, or at least getting on the waiting list for the inevitable drop outs during the first few weeks. So if your D has not even taken the initiative of contacting the professor, finding out the procedure for the wait list, having her advisor get an exception or calling the faculty person to discuss, etc. I would be very careful about making noise. Just because you are paying tuition doesn’t mean your D has exhausted all the normal and routine procedures for getting into the classes.</p>

17

<p>blossom, you make some very good points. after considering all of this - I might call but not call irate. Call just to ask the question - use phrases like “My daughter is telling me…”
It’s a good conversation starter. especially if this is a school that has told the parents - “call anytime”
With my oldest, I never would have dreamed of calling about anything.<br>
With my two younger ones, there were minor issues where I did make that call and it was productive and my kids didn’t suffer repercussions.</p>

<p>To the OP - after reading all of this - go back to your daughter and have a conversation with her - does she know where to go and whom to see? see if you can give her a backbone. Run the “phone call” by her and tell her you are thinking of calling to see what’s going on - then see what her reaction is.
If you truly feel like she is being shafted, then make the call.</p>

18

<p>While blossom is correct about all of the issues in post #16, at my university students are shut out of classes (completely, not just out of the sections that meet after 9 am), through no fault at all of their own. This can happen in several situations, where nothing can be done, even by the most accommodating professor. For example, our lab classes are limited to 24 at lower levels and 16 at higher levels. The limit reflects the working space available in the labs, and availability of equipment. Safety considerations would not permit us to squeeze in an additional student–there is no extra working surface available, and there are no extra exhaust hoods, and the instrument time is fully booked. In other colleges (such as the college of business, for example) accreditation is tied to the student:faculty ratio. So there is a limit that cannot be exceeded, without threatening the school’s accreditation. The only way to accommodate more students is to add sections, which means adding professors or temporary instructors. </p>

<p>I see no problem with mousegray writing to anyone of choice at the college–not to try to solve her daughter’s problems for her, but to alert the administration to their frustration. If no one complains, there is no incentive to shift funds from the new mahogany conference table for the Dean’s conference room to pay a temporary instructor for a full year.</p>

19

<p>There is no reason your daughter can’t handle this herself, perhaps with you coaching her if she doesn’t feel she can handle it. She needs to make an attempt to go through the motions herself, and then if she still doesn’t get the desired results you can back her up. Do you want to be fighting her battles for her when she graduates? This is a good opportunity for her to learn to handle herself with other adults in a professional but firm manner.</p>

20

<p>I would not call in the situation that the OP described. From the information in the OP’s post, it sounds like her D should be transferring to a school that offers the courses she needs.</p>

<p>I don’t think that calling the dean would do any good. I also think that if anyone contacts the dean, it should be the student</p>

<p>The only time I would contact a dean on my kid’s behalf would be if I were concerned about something dangerous at the school.</p>