Some of this is getting off topic. What may or may not have happened in the Taiwanese military 40 years ago has no relevance to today. At least with the service I’m most familiar with, any service member caught getting into a bar fight would likely be court-martialed, and if an officer, have their career ended.
That was my Naval Aviator cousin’s account. And some of those brawls ended with him seeing flight training classmates and squadron mates get disciplined from MPs/sent for counseling/dropped from training.
That took place in an army which was in my father’s society of origin in the mid-'50s, not the US military.
Even so, tensions from Academy officers vs those from other commissioning sources existed within the US military during in the past.
An older neighbor who served as a B-24 pilot in the ETO during WWII and commissioned from an accelerated Aviation cadet class not too long after Pearl Harbor could relate and commiserated with my father considering he had superiors who made a point to never let him or other Aviation Cadet officers forget they were West Point graduates during his service. While he was proud of his service as a B-24 pilot, the ringknocking behavior he encountered from his superior officers and internal officer politics within the Army didn’t exactly leave him with a warm regard for West Point officers.
“during in the past”
I think they’re asking that the focus be now. Another time, another place doesn’t reflect questions and feelings today or support OP’s concerns.
@cobrat You’re bringing up incidents from the Army Air Corps of the 1940s??
^ ^
Actually, the USAAF as that’s the name it adopted in lieu of the USAAC several months before Pearl Harbor.
Still talking 45+ years ago and not germane to OP’s issue.
@cobrat No. They had both the Army Air Force AND the Army Air Corps until 1947. My FIL was in the Army Air Corps in WW2. Never heard a story about beating up other branches.
But this is a story which predates the US Air Force.
So why are we hearing it?
Maybe I can bring closure to this digression. Fights between service members of the same are different branches usually involved large amounts of alcohol.
Today there is good natured ribbing but not animosity. Neither is there an issue between officers from ROTC and service academies. There are good attributes to both systems.
For OP, I think looking at ROTC non-scholarship or three years scholarship route for flexibility. Do due diligence on contract dates and requirements.
FWIW, I think those who go through Officer Candidate School (theoretically 12 weeks, though many get rolled back at least once so are there fore 15 weeks or more), don’t get as thorough a training. (And they know it - they cover some of the academic subjects in 3 weeks that would be a whole semester in a service academy.) Some of them are coming up from enlisted, but most are college grads who didn’t do ROTC. What I have heard (from a friend’s son who chose to enlist directly from high school) - is that some enlisted guys think the officers who were enlisted men first make better officers at least at first. I think like anything, after a while on the job, no one knows what your path there was.
If one receives an ROTC scholarship, one is on the hook to serve a minimum service obligation term unless the service/Federal government decides otherwise(i.e. scholarship cadets being released early/before graduation due to RIF as happened in the '90s).
Non-scholarship cadets are free to try ROTC without service obligation during their first and second years of college. However once one starts their junior year, s/he also incurs the same minimum service obligation upon graduation.
Incidentally, Service Academy cadets are also free to leave before the start of their third year without incurring a service obligation/paying Uncle Sam back for the costs of one’s Academy education.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Service Academy graduates, especially those in the top/middle of the class get first dibs on assignments…especially popular ones before ROTC/OCS cadets unless their ROTC/OCS cadet class standing is very high.
This was the key factor in why one older neighbor and HS alum turned down a full FA package admission to MIT to attend Annapolis in the mid '80s. He felt he had a much higher chance of fulfilling his dream of being a submarine officer from Annapolis than NROTC in a period when the submarine service was very popular/in demand. And when he graduated Annapolis 4 years later, he got his choice assignment.
ROTC Scholarships are quite good. What’s wrong with her serving her country? Why not ROTC + 5 years in service. She gets out of college as an officer and the feds will pay for specialty masters degree, i.e. computer science, languages, data science, engineering (U.S. Army Corps.).
In some ways, the military has one of the most equal pay scales. The base pay for a given pay grade and years of experience is the same for everyone. There’s no room to adjust that to give Sam more or Susy less. At the beginning of the career, advancements in rank and pay grade come at predictable intervals.
@cobrat from what I can tell (Navy only) where you are coming from is completely irrelevant. The branch of the service you end up in is based on the testing you take before you start OCS. The Seals went on to be Seals officers, the aviation guys are all being trained as aviators unless something came up that made them unsuitable, the Intel guys are all getting the same basic Intel training and all the surface warfare guys got put on ship immediately. (Mosty in the Japan Sea which might tell you something about the fact that we are so undermanned there they don’t get any more training before being shipped out.)
I’d like to see everyone, daughters and sons, have to give a year or two of service to their country - not necessarily military, but something.
@cobrat For NROTC, the service obligation begins first day of sophomore year. You are correct that service academies is first day junior year.
http://www.nrotc.navy.mil/military_requirements.html
There is no longer the same advantage of assignment at USNA over ROTC. Competition for USMC, Subs, etc. can be hyper competive at the Academy. Ship selection is also divided between ROTC and USNA for preferred assignments to ensure that Wardrooms come from both pipelines. Ironically, a Mid can get tagged subs for having stellar STEM grades even if the Mid want’s another service assignment.
The advantage of ROTC for an undecided student is if she decides after freshman year that it isn’t the right choice, then a school transfer isn’t tied to the choice.
ROTC offers a more normal college experience with military training on the side. Service Academies offer a rigourous training environment with deep friendships across all service assignments but little freedom and an experience that has almost nothing in common with a civilian college other than cheering for the home team - and even that is mandatory (for football).
My understanding is that with the exception of those coming in enlisted who choose to remain in their original service branch as officers, OCS branch assignments are determined by what the needs of the services are AFTER the Service Academy/ROTC cadets, especially those with high class standings claimed dibs on the most desirable assignments.
That’s not to say no slots are reserved for OCS, but that it’s much more difficult on average to get such assignments in OCS than it is from the Service Academy or ROTC.
Regarding surface warfare, what I’ve gathered from Navy folks is that training for those who opted for or sometimes placed in by default is that they are immediately assigned ships because all initial training/testing for that assignment/community takes place on those ships rather than training schools and evaluations/ratings done by the senior officers/captain of the ship.
According to those I knew who served as Naval officers, Surface Warfare is not considered a highly desirable occupation by them or many Academy/NROC classmates and many from their Annapolis/NROTC classes ended up in that position because their Academy/NROTC class standing was such they were denied their top preferences as Academy/NROTC cadets with higher class standing claimed first dibs on the more desirable assignments.
Some cited reasons they’ve had for the rating’s undesirability is due to the fact there’s no training school, qualification evaluations are completely dependent on the captain/senior officers of the ship one is assigned, one must juggle one’s study/training with their ship board duties and assigned watches, long hard hours*, and there’s a time limit on getting qualified for SWO.
Failing that qualification means one takes a severe hit to one’s Naval career right out of the gate.
I was a bit surprised at how negatively many former Naval officers regarded the SWO career path to the point they regarded it as “default choice” for those whose Academy/NROTC class ranking fell below a certain point.
- Worse than Naval Aviators as aviators are required to get a minimum of 8 hours of crew rest after each flying day due to the arduous nature of being a Naval aviator. SWOs don't have that.
SWOs get a bad rap that isn’t deserved. Like any command, it depends on that CO. Applies to a squadron or Air Wing just like it does a ship. Yes, there is disdain for SWOs for many. Matching the job to the individual is what matters.
Many of the questions and answers being battered about here change routinely so due dillegence is required. A few years ago, there was no route to SWO or aviator via OCS. I believe it was mostly supply officers. That will always change based on supply and demand.
SWOs do not get the initial pipeline training that other communities get. That was a change about a decade ago but there have been several variants. Expect that to change given recent ship collisions.
There is not truth that prior enlisted keep their same community automatically unless it was a specific commissioning source such as Seaman to Admiral that included a designated community with the officer package. That is probably what @mathmom is familiar with. A prior enlisted who earns one of the designated academy slots for enlisted competes for service assignment with everyone else.
Yes, class standing matters in placement but so does performance in community specific summer programs and screenings, particularly for Spec War or Marines
Disclaimer: I do not know such specifics for Army or Air Force.
@Cobrat OCS slots are determined when you pass the test. My kid had choice of SWO or Intel. (Or Aviation actually, but he didn’t apply for it, just did really well on the test we he took for a lark.) What you get offered is based on your test scores and what’s available. I don’t have any idea how it’s divvied up - so ROTC and service academies may well be ahead of OCS in line. But how you do at OCS is not hugely important as long as you don’t wash out.
The advantage of SWO over Intel is you are part of the chain of command. If you choose Intel you are out of it. The way my son put it is that if you are an admiral in intel and there is an accident the lowliest ensign will be captain of the lifeboat over you. My son felt this was giving up a lot.
I am no expert on any of this and it is certainly possible that I have misremembered or mixed up stuff I’ve been told.
One interesting thing about being a Naval Aviator is that one is not only part of the chain of command, certain higher level commands such as the command of aircraft carriers are strictly reserved for those who came up through the Naval aviation community.
My understanding wasn’t that it was automatic, but that if a prior enlistee desired to stay in his/her branch after commissioning before going to OCS, that it was more likely to be honored unless there was no officer vacancies in that branch. .
“Non-scholarship cadets are free to try ROTC without service obligation during their first and second years of college. However once one starts their junior year, s/he also incurs the same minimum service obligation upon graduation.”
This must have changed since I was in college ROTC 30 years ago (what hasn’t changed in 30 years?). But I was allowed to “try out” ROTC when I was a second semester junior in college (by credit hours - but I had two more years to go because my major required 144 hours). I didn’t get the slot for the position I was trying for, so I didn’t go any further in the program, and they didn’t ask me to consider other positions, lol. Apparently, I didn’t show enough interest and didn’t hang around the ROTC building and schmooze with people (yep, that’s the reason given when when they notified me I didn’t make the cut for my primary preference - “there are guys who are here hanging out everyday!”) - but I had several long afternoon outdoor labs, and just didn’t have time to hang out at the building for face time purposes. I took the required Military Science class and wore a uniform on those days, attended marching drills a couple of times/week the whole semester, and had morning flag raising duty a a couple of times, and passed the physical fitness test and the medical physical. I had to drive to the nearest base which was 3 hours away for the physical and was asked during the exam “Have you been pregnant before? Because you have a large XXXXXX!!” I was mortified, and just said no, when I should have elaborated and said "Hell no, you dork. What kind of Dr. are you? I’m a virgin! (which was true!) I don’t know if that would have been considered harassment, but I didn’t think it was appropriate at all. All that needed to be asked was “Do you have any dependents?” - there was no need to embarrass me like that.
I was introverted and not the stereotypical gung ho cadet, so that probably had something to do with my lack of success with the program. I could never make myself yell “Harch” instead of “March”, when it was my turn to lead the marching drills. It just sounded silly. Maybe that was a mortal sin.
I do think I would have enjoyed the experience if I hadn’t have been cut. I was adventurous, and had spent two prior summers living and working outdoors on an Air Force base in a YCC program, and loved the military environment.
My parents however, were not happy with the possibility, nor were they happy when I applied for a summer wildland fire fighting job - which I didn’t get either, but I did go on several short term fire fighting assignments later in my career despite my parents being frightened for my safety - but I think my Dad got on board with that and liked to brag about that to his friends after I continued to survive the assignments.