<p>It happened again. Im casually reading a thread, finding some interesting information, and then, BAM, a potshot at teachers. Then as it generally happens, it was applauded by another poster.</p>
<p>There seems to be running theme on this board that teachers are paid too much, dont work hard enough writing recommendations, have much too generous a retirement package, and the teachers union is ruining all of education.</p>
<p>I dont want to turn this into a specific-teacher-bashing thread (my son had this one teacher and she did the most awful things) and I don't want to have to defend unions again. But, really folks, help me understand this attitude. Clearly, Im missing something.</p>
<p>I don’t think teachers are overpaid. I am happy that more of them are getting a living wage, and want all of them to be thus paid. </p>
<p>The problem with a rogue teacher is that he can do a tremendous amount of damage to a child, and there is really little that can be done about it, if he is clever about what he is doing. I was not happy with one middle school teacher who was not reading my son’s essays and just giving him an “A” with the papers unblemished when all sorts of grammatical, incomplete, factual, errors were in them. His standards for paper writing were low, low, low. I went to meet with the teacher with an example in hand and asked him to read the paper to me, which was unreadable even in the first paragraph. He said, it was an oversight, he was tired at that time, etc, etc. The problem was that I had many more such samples and knew he did the same thing to other students as well. Gave high grades so that the parents stayed off his back.</p>
<p>Well, he started correcting my kid’s papers, sort of. But not other kids’. And he ended up with one of the few B’s in the class because of my meeting. Not a thing I could do. I see too many of that sort in the schools and have flushed a few of them out, but it is a lot of trouble to do, not usually successful. It is very difficult to set standards on teachers and getting rid of one unless some catastrophic event occurs is nearly impossible especially when unions are involved. And sometimes the catastrophe is something truly accidental and the teacher is unfairly blamed. The everday slack is hard to rectify. </p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that it doesn’t matter as much which school your child attends as which teachers he has. With so much on the teacher’s head, it is natural that parents want their kids to have a good teacher.</p>
<p>There ya go…in a nutshell…the rogue teacher…protected by administration and his union.</p>
<p>And…frankly…it has become too easy to become a teacher. Considering the level of responsibilty (educating children), there should be higher standards to become a teacher.</p>
<p>Our little school where parents have a good deal of say hired a terrible Spanish teacher that did a tremendous amount of damage in the one year she was there. Two very fine families were particularly hurt badly by this person who should not have been a teacher. But to get rid of a teacher, certain due process is necessary, as in many situations, and yes, the teachers have rights too, but when there are children at stake, it is a serious situation. </p>
<p>I rarely, rarely have complained about a teacher, Maybe 4 times in my 25 years involved with the schools and only twice did it go beyond the teacher itself. That’s with 5 kids. But I have seen some pretty bad teachers. The fact is that they are with our kids for a bulk of their waking hours, particularly in the early grades, and have a lot of influence on them. Truly a prob.em if home rules are not in sych with the teacher’s.</p>
<p>No one wants to smear all teachers. I have a lot of respect for them and have gone out of my way to help them out many times. The problem is what is at stake when they don’t do a good job, and it has not been a successful undertaking in terms of getting rid of incompetent teachers. I’ve seen no progress in this area in my lifetime. If anything with the unions, it has become even more problematic. </p>
<p>Though I credit the unions for bringing teachers’ pay to living wage levels more comparable to their education, I curse them for some of the stupidities that have been brought in the process. I’ve seen teachers that truly should have been let go kept just for the sake of the union, and I’ve seen some really ridiculous rules and regs implemented that no group so highly educated have had in terms of protection. It is an insult to the teachers’ collective intelligence. </p>
<p>One friend of mine was given a science teaching spot because of seniority, when she didn’t know diddley about science and never even looked at the materials since she was in college 20 years before. That was the way the rules were written. </p>
<p>Also when you catch a teacher red handed not doing his job, it still makes no difference other than getting him mad at you for pointing it out. This happened to me when I raised the situation of a teacher not reading and correcting essays. Caught him in the act with hundreds of pieces of paperwork, but not a danged thing could be done because it did not fit in any category. Unless the transgression is truly bad, it is hard to get anything done about a lazy, incompetent teacher that toes the lines on the regulations but doesn’t do a good job at all. Too many outstanding teachers get trouble because of the bureacratic rules that often have nothing to do with being a good teacher to students. This causes a lot of frustration.</p>
<p>My husband has a job where the results truly count and anyone working for him is out the door, including himself, if they do not do work and the accountability is really crystal clear. Not so with teachers. It is frustrating to see some bad eggs still there for years and nothing can be done about them.</p>
<p>Teachers aren’t underpaid anymore. The average highschool teacher around here makes 80,000 a year for 9 months of work. When the bond referendums come around we’re all putting up the signs and we all always agree to the tax hikes. Teachers around here are not underpaid.</p>
<p>For the most part, the teachers my kids have had have been so-so, and so much of the work is really done at home supervised by us…There have been one or two real life-changers and we have definitely praised these teachers effusively to the “powers that be.” OTOH, you can’t complain about the lousy teachers without your kid being severely penalized for it.</p>
<p>So, it just leaks out on this board. It’s not like we can say anything or get any results from the school. Tenure should just be done away with.</p>
<p>There are areas and situations where teachers are still seriously underpaid, but there have been many improvements in this area. </p>
<p>I think you really hit the nail on the head, Poetgirl, with your statement. When you point out issues with teachers when your child is stuck with the person for the bulk of the day, you can be putting the child in an uncomfortable position. When the teacher is truly unprofessional and has some big problems, this becomes a risk many parents do not want to take,especially with young children. Enough stuff happens where your child can be blamed in one way or other without having a teacher who resents him and you. It really puts the parent in a helpless position. The options are often not good or simple. Some schools really make it difficult to have children transferred out of bad teacher’s class, and leaving a good school is a tough decision and a lot of upheaval. </p>
<p>Last year, our school lost two wonderful families because a teacher did not handle a situation well. Still the teacher remains, and I can tell you that I don’t want her as my kid’s teacher even for one subject, given her poor judgment. There is just a lot at stake, and little one can do without a huge cost to oneself when things are bad in this area.</p>
<p>unfortunately- they don’t have to be 'orrible, to do damage to a child.
Favoritism of other students, lack of interest/knowledge in the subject, even just plain irresponsible behavior ( as when personal vacations are taken during the school year- especially without planning ahead with substitutes and lesson plans)</p>
<p>One teacher for a year like that - is bad because it can really get your child off track from what they should be learning and if it is followed by another year- then it is blood sweat and tears to get them back on track and it can take at least twice as long as the negative/mediocre experience to see if the damage has been repaired.</p>
<p>Our district doesn’t get rid of lousy educators- it promotes them.
We have over 44 people in the Seattle school district administration that make over 6 figures. What the heck do they do for that?</p>
<p>Also, and this may have very little to do with the teachers but be more about schools needing to play to the middle, if you have a child who is exceptional in any way, be it dyslexia or giftedness, or both, you’re going to have to fight all the time to get them what they “need.” And I don’t mean “want” I mean need. A lot of the people on this board, given the nature of their kid’s school choices, have exceptional kids…(more so than my kids), and so the frustration just starts at a very early age. But, I’m not sure there’s much teachers can do about that.</p>
<p>Some of the stuff is just life, and something kids need to learn to endure. I have a problem with teachers that just don’t do their job in the academic area. Some do not check papers or do due diligence in presenting the materials. I remember one teacher who basically let the parents teach the material via homework assignments. Too many kids couldn’t do the homework, making it necessary for the parents to go over the material for most of the kids. The teacher got away with it since the parents tended to be so involved and some idiot parents actually liked that the teaching level was so"high" that their kids were so challenged. The teacher was not teaching the stuff, and in fact, her knowledge of some of the grammar and math facets was downright poor. Yet she is a veteran at that school, and barring some big incident, she will retire from the system.</p>
<p>Last I checked teachers were severely underpaid.</p>
<p>Compared to whom?
Most areas have unionized teachers- the local and national teachers union are some of the most powerful unions in the country, the union does very well taking care of teachers rights.
Unfortunately while principals and teachers have unions, neither students or parents do.</p>
<p>I remember one teacher who basically let the parents teach the material via homework assignments
:::::::::nodding head in agreement:::::::::::::</p>
<p>And then you have disproportionality, because some parents have the background to teach the subject at home- and others not only don’t have the background but they barely have time to check that it is done.</p>
<p>It is blamed on racism/classism, but you could also consider that the more experienced educators with more seniority to pick the buildings where they want to teach, are also often interested in not playing disciplinarian all day and are more interested to be where parents have time to volunteer & donate money and generally demand high expectations from the school.</p>
<p>So you combine experienced teaching with supportive community who * can* help their child with homework and you have performance that is higher than the schools with less experienced ( and paid) teachers and probably a classroom full of children who already have a challenged background.</p>
<p>35 year teaching veteran here. I believe I put forth “A” work with each of my students. I will be retiring in the near future, and one of the reasons is that I do not like “open season on teachers”. I’m tired about reading about how easy my job is, how much I get paid (btw, I just reached the “average” quoted by another poster after 36 years), how much paid vacation I get, and how most folks entering the teaching profession are not smart enough to do anything else. It gets very old after a while. </p>
<p>I’m not perfect…no one is. I sure do appreciate the parents who have taken the time to write me (and my administration about me) nice notes thanking me for my dedication and hard work. </p>
<p>I work with a team of wonderful teachers at my school. Are they all perfect for every child? Probably not. But they are quite a talented bunch and a good mix of elders (like me) and new hires. I hope some of these new folks stay in this career as I have, but I have to say, that is not the trend I’ve seen in the last 10 years. There are precious few who enter teaching and stay in it for 36 years. The turnover is unbelievable.</p>
<p>AND re: those who should not be teaching. Blame your administration too. In most places (I would say all, but I’m not positive about that), it is VERY easy to dismiss a first, second, third, even fourth year teacher without a song and dance. The supervisor just needs to document the shortcomings and what the admins have done to help…and how the person has still not achieved as a teacher. Poof…not renewed. Sadly, there are not very many adminstrators who will take this initiative.</p>
<p>Well, I haven’t posted on cc for a long time but couldn’t pass on this thread. My 2 kids made it through public school with a mix of great teachers, ok teachers and a few “bad apples” in the LAUSD. I agree with some of the statements made by the above posters. But, to throw in another angle, what about bad students? I really think there is an inordinate amount of criticism of our school focusing on bad teachers (and there are those), but what about students who disrupt, are disrespectful, take a majority of the teaching time away from other students and have no parental involvement? Over the years, a good deal of authority has been taken out of the hands of classroom teachers especially in the realm of discipline. Yes, parents on cc tend to be involved, but the reality is that it is not always that way “out there”. It does indeed take a village and if the village is deserted the teacher is standing alone. (there, I’ve said it!)</p>
<p>Every fantastic teacher my kids have ever had has had a letter written to their direct supervisor as well as the board of education and whoever is in charge of the school: be it dean, principle, whatnot, in high praise for thier high work.</p>
<p>Here, the teachers are very highly paid. When there was going to be a strike because the board wanted to fix a building rather than give the raise, the PARENTS went to the board meeting with signs and stayed out there all night. Parents assisted with the teachers negotiations. Then, we lobbied the referendum to get higher pay.</p>
<p>I think it is an administration issue, personally. If the teachers are given the support they need to teach well, they will teach well. But too many administrators sit in an office and don’t support the people who are teaching the kids in ways which could make them more successful.</p>
<p>Overpaid, underpaid, fairly paid, it depends on where the school district is, the strength of the union and the school tax rate. Although, I must say, no one complains when their house values go up (location, location, location). The school district and its quality is the biggest “location” issue out there. Great teachers make a great school district.</p>
<p>Anyway, while that issue is interesting, it wasn’t my point. I suppose I am leaning more toward what thumper1 is saying. We dwell on the negatives, and don’t acknowledge the positives. </p>
<p>Recommendations? We write hundreds in our career. You may not like this, but this is not part of our job. We do it because we like your kid, we are amazed at his accomplishments and want him to succeed. But we aren’t paid for it. We shouldn’t be. It would be a conflict of interest. </p>
<p>Change your kid’s life? You bet we do. For every teacher that you call “rogue” there are hundreds that make your kid’s day. Is your kid going to major in pre-med? Engineering? Music? What do you think sparked his interest? Who do you think helped foster it? Not the teachers alone of course, but we sure helped. </p>
<p>I remember one teacher who basically let the parents teach the material via homework assignments
:::::::::nodding head in agreement:::::::::::::</p>
<p><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<</p>
<p>Yes!!! Our kids’ principal was so excited to hire a PhD to teach math (PhD in Math Education). Well, within 1 month, it was clear that this lady had no idea of how to teach Algebra II. She’d assign a lot of homework and then parents had to teach the concepts at home.</p>
<p>The principal was shocked when we complained (we were the first set of parents). Then the parade of complaining parents began. Thankfully, this is a Catholic school (no unions - that God), so out she went when it became clear to the principal that this lady could not teach! </p>
<p>The AP Cal teacher still laughs to this day saying, “Dr. ________ is blessing kids at ______ High School” (a public high that now can’t get rid of her.)</p>
<p>Parents love good teachers and even “average” teachers - parents dislike lazy teachers or teachers who have insane rules or policies.</p>
<p>In our neck of the woods, I lobby for teachers to be paid more (and our teachers are among if not the most highly paid in the state). I’ve had kids in public and private schools and our public school teachers at the HS level are as good as or better, on average, than the private school teachers. The public school system doesn’t hire teachers until they have five years experience, whereas the private schools hire newbies, some with great enthusiasm and some not, some who become excellent teachers and many who realize after a year or two that they don’t want to be teachers. </p>
<p>I’m not a big fan of unions of any kind and of teachers’ unions in particular. My brother is a teacher who gives more than his all because he loves teaching and a union rep has more than once suggested that he do less. </p>
<p>I do think the world has changed in many ways. One was that we had an extraordinary crop of women who became teachers, because gender discrimination kept them of jobs as lawyers, bankers, architects, etc. Great for kids, not great for the women. On average, the gender discrimination meant the overall quality of teachers was higher 25 years ago. That plus the overall decline in respect for authority among parents and kids has meant that people don’t have the same respect for teachers or treat them with the same respect. That is a shame. However, the best teachers that my kids had/have deserve and demand respect and get it. They are tougher, not easier. One created an interest in constitutional law in my son that has animated him for several years. My daughter’s fifth grade teacher was so charismatic and unusual that my daughter on her own asked where she could find more teachers like her and she suggested a private school a number of towns away and my daughter asked us if she could apply. Likely the most selective school in our metropolitan area for that age. My daughter applied with her recommendation and she got in and, while it wasn’t easy for her, it raised her game.</p>
<p>I try to compliment good teachers directly and to the administration. For my son’s Special Education caseworker, I wrote letters to two HS principals and the Superintendent of Schools telling them what an excellent job she was doing with my son.</p>