@mobius911, Poly plays small though. The total student body is about half that of UCB, classes are much smaller and very little of the teaching is done by TAs. In the ME department UCB has more than 60 teaching assistants. Poly has 3.
@dcplanner, was it the smell of the horse stables? :))
Oh yeah maybe @eyemgh I think that it was more of a practical knowledge vs theoretical knowledge type of education. It’s a great highly competitive school yet almost unknown on the East coast where my kids say they intend on settling too.
I want to know which schools kids LEARN the most. Hard tests don’t make you smarter, having competent/willing teachers and collaborative peer support does help you learn.
The idea of a curve is naturally impeding collaboration, and some of the schools that don’t practice grade
deflation, I would think tend to have more collaborate students that study in groups. Got the impression about WPI being more in that category. That said, have a S at a school know for deflation, and he insists engineering students are highly collaborative anyway. Was very surprised.
Personally, as a employer, when I see a student with an engineering degree, I give them some adjustment mentally
for a low GPA, knowing what they went through, no matter the school.
Good luck finding a way to objectively assess which programs cause students to learn the most.
Also, I think most people would be surprised at how much collaborative work takes place even at some of the most “competitive” programs. These programs aren’t dumb, and they know that if they want their graduates to get jobs (and therefore to be able to recruit more students), then they have to foster collaboration. After all, engineering is not done in vacuum. It is almost always collaborative.
@blevine - WPI does have the rep of being a collaborative environment. At the same time, some exams are difficult and sometimes curved. I suspect schools that are considered less collaborative are, in fact, collaborative. Most schools have some aspect of project work. And I would guess at most schools, students sometimes work together on physics problem sets, etc. I don’t know how you could determine which schools have the most caring professors. Georgia Tech has the reputation of being very difficult. I don’t think that has anything to do with whether the professors are dedicated teachers.
I think it’s possible to overthink this.
@dcplanner, CP’s motto, since it’s inception in the early 1900s is Learn By Doing. That doesn’t mean they eschew theory. Nor do they have rampant grade inflation like so many other programs. Their math is taught by the math professors using the curriculum math majors take. MEs take Linear Algebra even though it’s math in excess of ABET requirements. Poly is different than WPI in that the curriculum isn’t built around multiple projects. Rather, most classes have labs. They also have robust clubs, including all three SAE teams and multiple CubeSat clubs. CubeSat was started at CalPoly. So, it isn’t practical at the expense of theory, but students do learn the real implications of their work, not just the math.
The concept of curving is interesting and I’d like to hear views on how it works in practice. I’m aware of 3 approaches: 1) test is so hard that everyone “failed” using the typical percentage metrics, so the curve is necessary to normalize everyone to a traditional grade distribution; 2) tests/grades aren’t curved at all- the professor knows what represents excellence, average, poor, and if, for example, everyone achieves an “excellent” score then everyone gets an A; 3) curved to adjust the relatively tightly distributed scores to a normal distribution of A-F grades.
It would seem only 3 would lead to the so-called cutthroat environment, but 1 and 2 are more common in engineering classes. That said, many engineering classes are viewed as difficult by some portion of the class, so even if the professor uses option 2 there are going to be students earning C’s and below.
My daughter finished up her first calc class (her school works on terms). Her professor did not curve, and said ahead of time he would not curve. Her friend’s professor curved because the grades were very low. I don’t know if his tests were harder. My daughter said her professor was a better teacher than the other. Her comp sci class was not curved and some kids failed the final. It is wholly up to the professor and how s/he chooses to handle it. I don’t think there is a policy set by the school.
I think when an exam results in mostly low scores (high score in the 50’s or 60’s) I’m not sure what is accomplished. A grade of 50 earns a B, but who knows if it is really B work. I can see making the test tough enough that one can distinguish between truly A work vs B work.
My personal recollection is that the early calc, chemistry and physics exams were curved. Upper level classes were not curved.
There really is no set answer to how a curve works in practice because every professor is free to choose the grading method he or she finds fit. Most of my classes were not curved through undergrad and grad school.
@ClassicRockerDad and @smokinact
RE: “I meant University of Rochester. RIT is a lower tier school.”
I live in Rochester and the engineering programs are both highly regarded. USNews ranks the undergrad programs tied at 65 (also tied with UB and WPI). I see them has having different focus. RIT’s program is more job focused with a 5 year Co-op program and high job placement and UR’s is more theory based with grad school as the next step. Perhaps others have a different view, just thought I would add mine.
It’s sad that she would not look at Rose. It is amazingly supportive. It’s a great environment. My daughter will not consider it either, but she is thinking of a math or physics major for now. We still have a few years.
DS never warmed to the idea of Rose-Hulman, mostly due to location. But I think he would have liked it. When we toured Harvey Mudd, it became his “gold standard” for comparing other schools. Last May he graduated from Olin. Those three schools have a lot in common. and I think WPI too (based on my reading of CC threads… we did not research WPI).
@mysticalmagic . Your description is accurate of UR versus RIT. My son interviewed at both and is at UR. RIT is very get a job focused while UR is very research oriented. He is not research oriented or planning to go to grad school right away but it is a very supportive school with tutors available for those weed out programs. For Calculus, there is a room that UR pays a TA student I think during some evenings to just be there for students to drop in for help with Calc in addition to the school setting up and paying TAs to run study groups for some of those beginning math/science classes.
I’ve heard of at least a few engineering programs that have on campus TA support for Calc (sometimes Physics too) freshman year. That can be really helpful, especially for students that didn’t have rigorous AP/IB options in high school. Informal study groups can also be helpful.
Lots of bigger universities with PhD programs have intro level courses done with a faculty member leading the lecture, with TAs running smaller discussions*. A student at such a school who needs additional assistance can look into asking any of the instructors (the faculty member and all of the TAs) during their office hours.
*Yes, the merits/demerits of this format have been debated in many other threads…
I meant study sessions in addition to the typical scheduled weekly recitations with TAs.
For example, at CO School of Mines , “Core Supplemental Instruction (CSI): First-Year students are encouraged to attend our CSI workshops. These workshops run concurrent to many of the first-year classes (Calc, Chem, Physics, etc.) and reiterate/strengthen material taught in class. They are offered in the evening and are free to all students.”.
Could someone please compare and contrast TAMU and Clemson for me? They seem similar except size. (??)
There are tons more Aggie jokes.
Other than that, geography, size of the cadet corps, other g*gl-able things.
Your question isn’t really germane to the OPs question. You’d be better off asking it in a new thread.
I meant please compare and contrast TAMU and Clemson in the context of supporting and mentoring students. Sorry I didn’t make that clear the first time.