Which is more difficult to get into COE or Ross?

[maizeandblue21]

<p>The only point that needs to be made is that the College of Engineering will let anyone transfer in cross-campus who meet a low minimum GPA (2.5 usually) and passes calc 2, physics, and chem during their freshman year. Yes, those are fairly hard classes, but intro chem and physics are by all means doable and most prospective engineering students come in placed out of at least calc 1 with AP’s.</p>

<p>Ross obviously requires a much higher GPA (3.7+ in most cases) and takes into account extracurriculars, leadership skills, and application essays. Plus you still have to take calc 1 and econ 101 (and 102 sophomore year if you don’t take it freshman year). Once you do all of that, there’s still no guarantee you get in. I’m not saying the Ross curriculum is harder, but it’s clearly the harder school to gain admittance to.</p>

<p>There’s your point rebuttals, and I even did it without commenting on how the majority of CoE students are socially awkward and lack the necessary leadership skills to advance in the modern corporate world! (oops)</p>

[ForeverAlone]

<p>

most prospective engineering students come in placed out of at least calc 1 with AP’s.

If you came in with AP credit for Calc AB/BC, that doesn’t satisfy the requirement to transfer. You still have to take the next one.</p>

<p>For Ross, you came in with AP credit, you wouldn’t need to take it at all.</p>

<p>[Admissions</a> Requirements | Michigan Engineering](<a href=“http://www.engin.umich.edu/college/admissions/undergrad/cross-campus/requirements]Admissions”>http://www.engin.umich.edu/college/admissions/undergrad/cross-campus/requirements)
2.5 GPA isn’t doing you any favors. You’ll realistically want to get at least a 3.0.</p>

<p>

CoE students are socially awkward and lack the necessary leadership skills to advance in the modern corporate world!

and pretty much every big tech company’s executive board you can think of had a technical degree to begin with.</p>

<p>Put a engineering kid in any business student’s job position and he can at least do some of it.
Put a business kid in an engineering job’s position, he wouldn’t even know how to start.</p>

<p>

Plus you still have to take calc 1 and econ 101 (and 102 sophomore year if you don’t take it freshman year).

If you’re arguing that Econ 102 is a rigorous class, you’re not doing yourself any favors.</p>

<p>

account extracurriculars, leadership skills

They’re not too big on extra-curriculars and leadership skills especially when you’re only 5 months into college. any leadership position is easily acquired because there are so many clubs on campus that nobody really cares about</p>

<p>I never said that Transfer difficulty COE > Ross.
I said COE = Ross.</p>

[777Blue77]

<p>“There’s your point rebuttals, and I even did it without commenting on how the majority of CoE students are socially awkward and lack the necessary leadership skills to advance in the modern corporate world! (oops)”</p>

<p>That’s debatable.</p>

[maizeandblue21]

<p>

2.5 GPA isn’t doing you any favors. You’ll realistically want to get at least a 3.0.

3.0? In freshman year? So difficult…</p>

<p>

and pretty much every big tech company’s executive board you can think of had a technical degree to begin with.

You think that might have something to do with them being a big tech company??? Oh, and Steve Ballmer has a BA in econ and math and an MBA.</p>

<p>

Put a engineering kid in any business student’s job position and he can at least do some of it.

Ha</p>

<p>

If you’re arguing that Econ 102 is a rigorous class, you’re not doing yourself any favors.

I did very well in both 101 and 102, but a lot of people struggle immensely with those classes because it requires a certain way of thinking. A lot of engineers never take intro econ and brush it off as an easy class, when in reality they wouldn’t necessarily do that well. Only 15% of the class actually gets an A.</p>

<p>

They’re not too big on extra-curriculars and leadership skills especially when you’re only 5 months into college. any leadership position is easily acquired because there are so many clubs on campus that nobody really cares about

Extracurriculars actually count for 33% of the value on your Ross app, which of course you wouldn’t know because you’ve never gone through the process. And you list relevant leadership you had in high school as well, a lot of which does provide a great background to move into business.</p>

<p>

I never said that Transfer difficulty COE > Ross.
I said COE = Ross.

And you’d still be wrong unfortunately. So many of my friends moved from LSA to CoE with extreme ease after one semester. They literally just went to engineering’s admissions office, got a form to fill out, and were transferred over the next day. Not all of them had stellar GPA’s or great grades in chem and physics. It’s just not that hard to move over there.</p>

[ForeverAlone]

<p>

You think that might have something to do with them being a big tech company??? Oh, and Steve Ballmer has a BA in econ and math and an MBA.

</p>

<p>The best innovations will never get off the ground if you don’t know how how operations and management work. You named one guy, congrats. I don’t think you know how arguments work. Because naming individuals proves nothing. Besides I could name you hundreds of tech execs who did have tech degrees. </p>

<p>

3.0? In freshman year? So difficult…

Never said it was so difficult. Getting a 3.0 in freshman intro classes has the same difficulty as getting a 3.5 in LSA humanities and soft sciences. </p>

<p>

Ha

lol</p>

<p>

I did very well in both 101 and 102

same here. it’s good gpa padding. </p>

<p>

Extracurriculars actually count for 33% of the value on your Ross app, which of course you wouldn’t know because you’ve never gone through the process.

I don’t need to be a Psych major to know that it’s a joke. </p>

<p>

So many of my friends moved from LSA to CoE with extreme ease after one semester

and many of my friends got into LSA to Ross easily.</p>

[maizeandblue21]

<p>Even making the tech company point in the first place is akin to me saying that the C level execs of major Wall Street firms all have Econ or Business backgrounds to begin with. OF COURSE they do. That’s no surprise to anyone, just like it’s no surprise that most tech execs have a tech background. I wasn’t proving any point with Ballmer, just adding a bit of anecdotal evidence.</p>

[ForeverAlone]

<p>You’re missing the point. It’s the duality of their skillset. C-level execs know how to to do the ground-level engineering and can do management. Meanwhile, business kids have a limited skillset.</p>

[maizeandblue21]

<p>I think a lot of engineers severely underestimate the skillset business students acquire in Ross, but that’s really beside the point. And in both professions the people who rise to the top are obviously the best of the best. A majority of engineering students at Michigan would be completely and utterly lost in trying to create a business plan or oversee the operations of a large company, and their social/networking skills reflect that. I’ve been to some engineering career fair events, and it’s actually laughable compared to a Ross corporate event. Obviously there are some out there who can, but there are also some bschool kids out there with strong technical skills who can code as well as engineering kids and would excel in the CoE.</p>

<p>This is all getting off topic anyways, really doesn’t have anything to do with how hard it is to transfer into either school.</p>

[ForeverAlone]

<p>look through any Michigan Facebook group, you will see a posting of “Hey I’m am in Ross and I have a *****ty business idea and i’m looking for full-time front/back end developers to work on XXXXX. I’m don’t have any money to offer(and skills to contribute), but I am willing to offer equity because this idea is SUPADUPA awesome and a future fortune 500” that’s laughable.</p>

<p>but how often do you see someone who’s can make an actual prototype go to a business student? on a much rarer occasion. </p>

<p>My friend took a Ross class which he said is pretty much a tutorial on excel. Any engineering application other than C++ is something they’ll expect you already know or pick up quickly.</p>

<p>

I’ve been to some engineering career fair events, and it’s actually laughable compared to a Ross corporate event.

because a lot more business classes are presentation based. Ross kids don’t come in as social butterflies, their coursework deals a lot more with presentations.</p>

<p>

This is all getting off topic anyways, really doesn’t have anything to do with how hard it is to transfer into either school.

that’s because you left the discussion of transferring first.</p>

[maizeandblue21]

<p>

but how often do you see someone who’s can make an actual prototype go to a business student? on a much rarer occasion.

That’s a major mistake a lot of pseudo-entrepreneur CoE “hacks” make. You need someone with the know-how on actually creating a business plan from the ground up and growing its profitability in a sustainable way. Tony Fadell came into Ross earlier this year and did an entire chat on just this. Business school students “know what they don’t know” much better than young engineers. You need expertise on both ends.</p>

<p>

because a lot more business classes are presentation based. Ross kids don’t come in as social butterflies, their coursework deals a lot more with presentations.

In general yes they do. Social acumen can’t be taught too much, even with consistent presentation. Kids who are drawn to Ross are generally more social because they will be put in a position where they can use social skills to advance their careers more than engineers.</p>

<p>

that’s because you left the discussion of transferring first.

“37% acceptance rate doesn’t mean much you’re competing with pledges who partied too hard their first semester.”</p>

[ForeverAlone]

<p>

That’s a major mistake a lot of pseudo-entrepreneur CoE “hacks” make. You need someone with the know-how on actually creating a business plan from the ground up and growing its profitability in a sustainable way. Tony Fadell came into Ross earlier this year and did an entire chat on just this. Business school students “know what they don’t know” much better than young engineers. You need expertise on both ends.

</p>

<p>If you’re going to a venture capitalist, they want to at least see a working prototype and a business plan. Engineers can make a decent prototype themselves and formulate at least half-decent business plan. Most business students will only have the a business plan, but not the actual product to demonstrate, unless of course they hire an engineer.</p>

<p>

In general yes they do. Social acumen can’t be taught too much, even with consistent presentation. Kids who are drawn to Ross are generally more social because they will be put in a position where they can use social skills to advance their careers more than engineers.

and we could also generalize that they’re scared of math and science.</p>

<p>and I still had another post after the 37% statement relating to transferring. see # 28</p>

[Much2learn]

<p>So there isn’t much advanced quantitative finance available and she wound need to take ad advanced math in COE, either as part of CS or add a math minor perhaps.</p>

<p>She is taking Multi-Variable calculus this year and already has a 5 in B/C. Where would they place her for math, or what is the process?</p>

[maizeandblue21]

<p>

and formulate at least half-decent business plan

I highly disagree.</p>

<p>

and we could also generalize that they’re scared of math and science.

Do you really want to go down this road given the hilarious irony of your username in relation to the point you’re trying to make?</p>

<p>

and I still had another post after the 37% statement relating to transferring. see # 28

You missed the point. It’s that strayed off topic first, however went on to falsely claim that I did. Doesn’t really matter either way though.</p>

[ForeverAlone]

<p>

I highly disagree.

market research, feasibility, sustainability.etc… aren’t that difficult to come up with.
A Ross kid’s business plan write-up will look better than the average engineering. But the average ross kid couldn’t make a prototype of their idea. And the implementation matters a whole lot more.</p>

<p>

Do you really want to go down this road given the hilarious irony of your username in relation to the point you’re trying to make?

have you heard of the meme? I also made it as an inside joke with another HS classmate’s username on CC. but feel free to go to personal attacks if you must.</p>

<p>

You missed the point. It’s that strayed off topic first, however went on to falsely claim that I did. Doesn’t really matter either way though.

I mentioned 3.0 engineering prereq vs. other LSA stuff 3.5</p>

[maizeandblue21]

<p>

market research, feasibility, sustainability.etc… aren’t that difficult to come up with.
A Ross kid’s business plan write-up will look better than the average engineering. But the average ross kid couldn’t make a prototype of their idea. And the implementation matters a whole lot more.

Implementation of a plan is exactly what Ross kids are great at. It takes a WHOLE lot more than just having a prototype.</p>

<p>

I mentioned 3.0 engineering prereq vs. other LSA stuff 3.5

Still missing the point. It’s that you were the first to go with the “pledges that drink too much” line, which lead to the small digression from the original topic.</p>

[ForeverAlone]

<p>

Implementation of a plan is exactly what Ross kids are great at. It takes a WHOLE lot more than just having a prototype.

you don’t get a business, without having a product. You can write all the business plans you want, but if you don’t actually do it. It’s nothing. </p>

<p>

Still missing the point. It’s that you were the first to go with the “pledges that drink too much” line, which lead to the small digression from the original topic.

every post from #28 and before mentioned at least something related to transferring.</p>

<p>Your post #29 included absolutely nothing about transferring.</p>

[maizeandblue21]

<p>

you don’t get a business, without having a product. You can write all the business plans you want, but if you don’t actually do it. It’s nothing.

Great, I agree. Doesn’t change the fact that having a competent businessman helping with a new company is also completely essential.</p>

<p>

every post from #28 and before mentioned at least something related to transferring.</p>

<p>Your post #29 included absolutely nothing about transferring.

All I’m saying is your little drunk pledge competition line is what started the whole digression. Not that it matters though, this is all really just wasted effort arguing about something we clearly disagree on.</p>

<p>tl;dr? OP, my answer to your question is that Ross is harder to get into than CoE. On the contrary, ForeverAlone believes that they are equally difficult to get into. We both believe that the engineering curriculum is more difficult. Thanks for listening.</p>

[bearcats]

<p>Short answer: Anyone of reasonable intellect should be able to get into both schools easily, while COE is easier because everyone can “get in”. However, it’s far harder to get through engineering than business. I don’t understand how any of this is debatable.</p>

<p>Let me lay it out in mathematical expressions
P(getting into Ross)<em>P(graduating from ross with a reasonable gpa|getting into Ross) = P(graduating from Ross with a reasonable gpa)
P(getting into COE)</em>P(graduating from COE with a reasonable gpa|getting into COE) = P(graduating from COE with a reasonable gpa)</p>

<p>P(getting into COE) ~ 100%
P(graduating from Ross with a reasonable gpa|getting into Ross) ~ 100%</p>

<p>On the overall, adjusted for admissions
P(graduating from COE with a reasonable gpa) < P(graduating from Ross with a reasonable gpa)</p>

<p>“I think a lot of engineers severely underestimate the skillset business students acquire in Ross”
While that may be true, I think most Ross kids also overestimate the skillset they acquire in bschool. And I am saying this as someone who in the past has gotten A+s in 4 Ross classes barely doing anything (granted they are all portfolio management/derivative related classes which I knew a lot going in), has routinely competed on recruiting trails with Ross grads, interned at bulge bracket trading desk sophomore summer, landed offers from almost every bulge bracket, chicago prop trading firms and MBB for junior summer(I did a lot more interviews than I needed just for the free trips to Chicago and NYC), and as someone who by now has interviewed quite a few Ross kids. I have met a grand total of two truly impressive Ross kids

• one kid who ended up at Lazard, and interestingly, I saw him at 14 out of 18 super days I went to (the only ones I didn’t see him at were the chicago prop shop)
• the other one was a year ahead of me, dual degree COE and Ross and ended up at Moelis
  Side note: In before ThisIsMichigan attempts to mock me for bragging when I am just trying to set the context of my interaction with Ross kids and basis to judge.</p>

<p>This also caught my eye:
“A majority of engineering students at Michigan would be completely and utterly lost in trying to create a business plan or oversee the operations of a large company”
And so would the majority of Ross students. To think you actually learn jack crap from school is foolish. </p>

<p>I do think you guys are both missing something on this debate, however. As my first boss out of school would say, your technical competence (or other people’s perception of the existence of such) keeps you from getting fired and opens the door to advancement, but your soft skills (real or faked, doesn’t really matter) actually advance you. The former sets a floor for your comp, the latter sets a ceiling for your comp. For instance, the top 25% of a computer science graduating class all gets hired into 100K+ jobs. That’s a comp floor because of their highly demanded skill set. This floor is far lower in Ross. However, a large number of these CS grads will end up being grunt coders and have their comp plateau very quickly because they lack the soft skills to raise their ceiling.</p>

<p>Your average COE grad is better in the former, and your average Ross grad is better in the latter. And the very limited people good at both in either school will have a great career trajectory, but you can have a mediocre or even good career having just one of the two.</p>

<p>BACK TO THE OP
“So there isn’t much advanced quantitative finance available and she wound need to take ad advanced math in COE, either as part of CS or add a math minor perhaps.”</p>

<p>What type of quant finance? High frequency trading (a perpetual spiral to the bottom btw)? Quant working in stat arb strategies? Quant working in vol arb strategies? Quant in general portfolio management? Quant developing analytics? Structurer on the sell side (getting killed by Dodd Frank)? Electronic market making on the sell side? All are slightly different skillset and favors some majors vs others. Tell me what your daughter actually wants to do and I can tell you what the target skillset is. If you don’t know, tell me why she wants to be in the quantitative side of finance in general and I should be able to guess what she really wants to do.</p>

[Much2learn]

<p>Thanks Bearcats!</p>

<p>On the Computer Science side, she can program in Java and Python.</p>

<p>On the Finance side, she is interested in investments. She has a small portfolio of real stocks that she manages now. I have begun to teach her about the value of an option and how it is driven by volatility.</p>

<p>Since she is strong in math (taking MV Calc now), I thought that she should pursue understanding the quantitative side of options, portfolio theory, decision modeling, etc. and then add on some of the more qualitative aspects. Although she is learning more qualitative things through her personal portfolio.</p>

<p>What are your thoughts?</p>