<p>Northwestern, no question.
Ignore USNews ranking. Wash U is notorious for gaming it.</p>
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The fact that they're annoying with their relentless mailings is beside the point.
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<p>Thanks TheDad. Wash-U literally bombards you with mail, although with a h.s. junior now in the pipeline we're seeing almost equal mail from UChicago, NYU, and Tulane. I'll be the first to admit that the sheer volume of mail is annoying to the point of being obnoxious. Granted. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the educational experience.</p>
<p>I look at it like any other business. There's the business (in this case the school -- the academics/social experience) and there's the marketing demands of the business. Wash-U's particular marketing approach, while undoubtedly effective from a marketing standpoint, annoys many people. But, that's how they market, probably as an over-reaction from years and years of being under-recognized. Interestingly and ironically, many people who have to sift through all of their mailings in turn over-react to their marketing by using it to somehow define the university as a whole.</p>
<p>Students and parents know that after a student is admitted and starts school, the admissions office ceases to exist. The job of marketing is to get you to the school, what happens from that point on is up to the student and the holistic quality of the undergraduate experience. Wash-U is considered to be aggressive and controversial in the former (marketing), but as for the latter, they've got a pretty good track-record of excellence (depending upon whether their strengths fit your strengths).</p>
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Ignore USNews ranking. Wash U is notorious for gaming it.
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<p>If USNWR is so easily "gamed," then we should all recognize that USNWR and the entire conceit of assigning numbers in order to ostensbily rank similar institutions is flawed to the point that its only use is as a starting point, a road map, to a thorough investigation of which college is right for you.</p>
<p>The question of which university is "better overall" NU or Wash-U (or Chicago, Cornell, Penn, Dartmouth, Hopkins, Rice, etc.) is incredibly simplistic. What answer do you expect to receive? Who is qualified to give you this answer? Shouldn't the question really be "Which college is better for ME, given my interests, goals, and style compared to a given school's strengths and weaknesses?"</p>
<p>USNWR and the entire cottage industry of quick and easy college rankings exist because people want quick answers that appear objective. Anyone who relies entirely on these rankings to make fine distinctions between schools should make sure they open their eyes before they start college. Who is the better author ... Marlowe, Dickens, Hardy, Dostoevsky, Proust, Faulkner, Greene, Nabokov, Bellow, or Powers? Once a threshhold level of ability has been attained, doesn't it come down to preferences, aesthetics or otherwise, namely -- what do YOU want in a writer?</p>
<p>Personally, my favorite writer on this particular topic is TheDad, who said (about rankings):</p>
<p>"It's the same old baloney, re-sliced."</p>
<p>To which I add, the immortal words of Clara Peller:</p>
<p>"Where's the beef?"</p>
<p>They are both good. Northwestern is more social and preppier though.</p>
<p>NU grads can get together and enjoy Big 10 sports long after graduation. What do WashU grads get together to do--watch soccer?</p>
<p>BTW as a former resident of Evanston, it is one of the nicest towns around. The number of good restaurants is amazing and the downtown adjacent to campus is great. Then you have the on campus beaches--not too shabby. Many of the homes near NU are in the $1,000,000+ range.</p>
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Anyone who relies entirely on these rankings to make fine distinctions between schools should make sure they open their eyes before they start college.
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The difference isn't that fine, IMO. NW is clearly better. The ony reason WashU is mentioned in the same sentence is its dubious UNews ranking.</p>
<p>Yalebound,</p>
<p>Do you have direct experience with either institution?</p>
<p>What is the basis for your opinion?</p>
<p>Northwestern and her sister in the city to the south = Best in the Midwest!!!!!!</p>
<p>The Shanghai Jiao Tong University rankings which relies heavily on scientific fields and research gives a slight edge to Wash U. As NU clearly is better in most liberal arts, performing arts, communications and other "soft" areas I'd give the nod to NU over Wash U.</p>
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"Do you have direct experience with either institution? What is the basis for your opinion?
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<p>Neighbors. One brother, the smart one, got into NW. Next year, the other, well-rounded but not that smart, had no chance at NW, but got into Wash U ED. They compared notes, visited both campuses overnight, etc. Bottom line, NW was harder to get into and had smarter kids. Wash U is a beautiful campus and they liked that part esp. Wash U gives tons of merit money. They give it to kids who will improve their SAT and GPA ranks for USNews. In that sense, they're buying talent, but one could argue that it makes for more stimulating student body having so many smart kids, regardless.</p>
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In that sense, they're buying talent, but one could argue that it makes for more stimulating student body having so many smart kids, regardless.
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<p>You sure could.</p>
<p>Well clearly on the East Coast, Northwestern has the better reputation. This isn't in dispute as far as I can see. However, if memory serves me right, Wash U St.Louis has a higher endowment. In fact, it is in the top 15 of all universities in endowment and growing quickly. If this keeps up, there is no way that Northwestern willl stay better. Endowment is very crucial for many things: Endowed salaries attract top professors. High Endowment allows for more scholarships and better students. A high endowment allows for better upkeep of buildings and better and new facilities. A high endowment may not by itself make the university top notch,but it certainly is a MAJOR factor in judging quality.</p>
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Wash U St.Louis has a higher endowment.[
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Yes, but it's Danforth, Ralston Purina money, scion is arch conservative religious zealot John Danforth who was praying with Clarence Thomas and disparaging Anita Hill and all harassed women by inference.</p>
<p>Quote: "Bottom line, NW was harder to get into and had smarter kids. "</p>
<p>I don't necessarily believe that is true.</p>
<p>I think the ED rate for Northwestern was close to 50% last year. According to their website, the RD acceptance rate was around 30% .(may be 2003 data)</p>
<p>WUSTL had close to 20,000 applicants last year. I think the acceptance rate was quite a bit less than 30%.</p>
<p>I think they are both excellent schools.
I would hate to base a decision on which is a better school based on a single family's experience or opinion!</p>
<p>My S researched WUSTL extensively last year and was quite impressed. He also looked at Northwestern. (He actually found some of the WUSTL mailings to be quite informative.) He applied to WUSTL and was accepted. He opted to not even apply to Northwestern. Both schools were considered to be match/safety for him. Does his personal choice to apply to WUSTL make it a better school? I don't think so. </p>
<p>As another point of reference, he has a cousin who graduated last year from Northwestern, and she absolutely loved it!</p>
<p>YB --
So, your opinion is based on your problems with Wash-U's alleged "gaming" of the USNWR ranking system and one set of brothers? Wash-U's marketing strategies might be offensive, but marketing is marketing, it says nothing about the quality of the underlying institution. And the brothers ... one allegedly smart and the other cursed with that suddenly less than complimentary term "well-rounded" (who showed himself to be "smarter" than advertised by way of applying ED to Wash-U ... ED admissions to both Wash-U and NU are decidedly easier than coming from the RD pool) ... yep ... their admissions history and subsequent "in-depth" investigation of the respective 100+ year old major colleges is enough to decide that NU is clearly better.</p>
<p>You're entitled to your opinion that one school is clearly better than the other. But, I'd think most discerning readers would expect your opinion to be predicated on a little more than that.</p>
<p>Since the 1970's, we've known literally scores of students who have grappled with the NU versus Wash-U decision. Some have been siblings, others not. ;) These schools traditionally draw from the same pool of students. Some students find aspects of NU more desirable and choose NU; others find aspects of Wash-U more desirable and choose it. To some extent, it depends on anticipated majors (aspiring journalists, theatre majors, and engineers will almost always choose NU; pre-meds often choose Wash-U). Whether they choose NU or Wash-U, these students typically do very well for themselves in graduate placement and job opportunities. I don't think that grad schools and employers find one "clearly better" than the other.</p>
<p>The major distinction we've seen is that virtually every Wash-U alum seemed to LOVE their entire undergraduate experience, in an almost zealous, moonie-like way. By comparison, the NU undergrads had mixed feelings about their undergraduate experiences -- some loved it (and the whole Evanston/Chicago/frat-sports vibe, others felt like undergrads were simply numbers in the big NU money-making machine. A common (not universal) criticism is that NU is NOT a wonderful place to be an undergrad, that a great deal of its rep is tied to amazing graduate departments. Since most undergrads are primarily concerned about the undergrad experience they are about to have, this kind of distinction is very important for many. It's the same reason why many think it's very wrong for Harvard or Stanford to "RANK" as truly top schools for "UNDERGRADUATE" work.</p>
<p>I've said what I have to say about this topic. I noticed that this is my 99th CC post -- I'm probably taking a sabbatical from CC until after my Spring college tour with my daughter. I don't want Post 100 to be about something as meaningless as USNWR rankings -- how many C-angels can fit on the head of a pin indeed.</p>
<p>To close -- I could not disagree more about NU being "clearly better" than Wash-U, especially since so much of the current backlash against Wash-U has to do with their marketing and the effect it supposedly has on the sacred USNWR rankings. Since the 1960's, Wash-U has been known as a hidden gem amongst American colleges. Their marketing department has taken care of the "hidden" problem. The increased recognition has resulted in even better students, faculty, facilities, and programs. And the problem with this is . . . ? I think most educators and most informed students continue to see Wash-U as a gem ... whether its the right gem for them, or not, is a case-by-case determination.</p>
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I don't want Post 100 to be about something as meaningless as USNWR rankings
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<p>Meaningless is definitely the wrong word for the USNWR rankings. They have a huge impact on students' impressions and on the colleges themselves.</p>
<p>As of the last stats Wash U had a 13.2% higher endowment. Not trivial but not a huge amount.</p>
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Meaningless is definitely the wrong word for the USNWR rankings. They have a huge impact on students' impressions and on the colleges themselves.
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Excerpt from a recent report done at Colgate on USNews Ranking</p>
<p>"We estimate that moving up a place in the ranking of a top 5 school would increase their average yield by about 4% for aided students. For both aided and full-pay applicants an improvement in rank is associated with about a 2% increase in yield for schools ranked between 6 and 25.... Interestingly we found that the USNWR rank had no influence on the matriculation choice of full-pay students choosing among top 5 schools."</p>
<p>"Having an influence" does not equate with "meaningful." The daily astrology column in your local newspaper doubtlessly has some influence...this should not suggest that it is meaningful.</p>
<p>Oh noooooo Mr. Bill (Sat nite live reference for those too young to recall)- DudeDil-- don't take a LOA-- In between mapping out the tour plans and looking for good airfare-- post a quip or two here from time to time-- if not for you-- think about the little people you've left behind.. :)</p>