<p>“Personally, I don’t see the appeal in living in a “college town” and I would rather wake up everyday and look outside and see a gorgeous quad with flowers blooming everywhere (Wash U).”</p>
<p>You won’t see any flowers blooming outdoors in winter. </p>
<p>“I personally don’t find Ann Arbor to be aesthetically appealing even though it has a nice intellectual vibe with all the coffee shops and bookstores.”</p>
<p>I don’t find St. Louis to be aesthetically pleasing, even though WUSTL has a nice campus.</p>
<p>“Is that why WUSTL has a lower Peer Assessment rating and is ranked significantly lower in graduate ranking in almost all departments except for medicine and medical related fields?”</p>
<p>Or WUSTL’s undergraduate PA rating (4.1) for that matter. Although not significantly lower than Michigan’s PA (4.4), it is hard for anybody to substantiate the claim that WUSTL is “by far extremely and more respected in academia/graduate/professional schools”.</p>
<p>I find it very amusing that the WUSTL supporters (high school students) and anti-Michigan bashers (mainly because it’s public) will go to great lengths to defend why WUSTL is better than Michigan – without any empirical evidence to support their claims. Yet, these posters need to listen and recognize that some of the Michigan alum posters here have already graduated from college and have participated in the workforce for some time. They have interacted with employers and academics, and most of these senior-level people will without hesitation say Michigan > WUSTL. Michigan has a great national reputation, but some CC posters here continue to underrate it.</p>
<p>Clearly there are few people on this thread who want to play the Wolverine-Baiting game but I’ll pass. I had intended on writing something snarky like: Could it be that so many of their undergrads have to go on to grad school because they are so poorly prepared by WUTSL? But I won’t. I was going to suggest to the poster who said they’d never heard of Michigan before coming to CC that they buy a map; but I’ll let that slide as well.</p>
<p>For the OP, I’ll leave you with this. Both Michigan and WUSTL are fine universities; you will have the opportunity for a great education at either. You need to decide how important “Brand” recognition is to your future.</p>
For the record, California has been losing population too (relatively small though).</p>
<p>I’m surprised hawkette hasn’t weighed in on this thread with her usual data dump of undergrad statistics and average high/low temps in February… :rolleyes:</p>
<p>^^Actually UCB the population of California continues to grow, even though more people are leaving than immigrating currently. It’s birthrate is higher than it’s death rate and the numbers grow just from the sheer volume of residents. Michigan, on the other hand, has LOST population. Even the birthrate over the death rate here cannot stem the tide over the large numbers of people leaving.</p>
<p>I am hilariously amused [again] by the “opinions” by people who seek to thread a needle by comparing two clearly different, but both execellent, universities. I also notice a near rabid demand for “prestige” and name recognition by potential international applicants to American universities. Foreign students interested in American schools should clearly understand a basic premise; we’ve got many excellent and superior colleges in the United States spread out in nearly every region of the nation. Pardon the frustration but some of us tire of the hairsplitting and nickpicking when it comes to evaluating colleges with well deserved reputations for excellence.</p>
<p>I’ve been reading, but have so far declined to post as the U Michigan mob doesn’t usually welcome my lack of starry-eyed adulation for their alma mater. But now that I’ve been summoned….haha.</p>
<p>For the record, I think that weather differences exist, but the reality is that both have pretty awful and long winters. Still, it’s slightly worse in gray Michigan (avg Feb Hi/Low is 45-26 at Wash U and 34-19 at U Michigan). </p>
<p>Btw, I think that Wash U is significantly stronger when measured for undergraduate education and I can provide plenty of supporting data if anyone wants it. For factors that I think are most important (student quality, class sizes, teaching prowess, financial resources and willingness to spend on undergrads), Wash U makes a clean sweep. </p>
<p>Despite the above, I think students can have a good, albeit very different, undergraduate experience at both colleges. And as Lake Washington suggests above, non-US students/posters need to bone up on more than the handful of US schools that are best known in your homelands. You need to understand that the reps of these school are much more likely the result of their graduate school excellence and furthermore, this perspective neglects/underappreciates the literally dozens of outstanding undergraduate options available in the USA.</p>
<p>As this thread is presumably about YOU, and which choice would likely have the best outcome for YOU, let me give you my take a few points already mentioned:</p>
<p>1) Weather: too similar to matter ( the ave. 9 degrees F delta hawkette posted)
2) Pre-med training and acceptance into med school: Irrelevant to your interests
3) USNWR ranking: relevant to a very few, and certainly not hiring managers or adcoms
4) Peer Assessment Score: Relevant to the quality of the faculty… possibly important to you.
5) Large University vs. Small: Now we’re talking turkey. This is a relevant criterion. As you are an international student, I would say, for YOU, Large > Small. You will likely find at least 50 Int’l students at Michigan from your country, or certainly your region.
6) International Prestige: YOU didn’t say whether you plan to work outside the US. If you do, this discussion is OVER. Michigan x 100.
7) Quality of Econ and PoliSci programs at the two schools: possibly important, but you might change your mind about major, which would make Michigan’s more broad and more respected coursework/faculty in these two disciplines irrelevant. On the other hand, as Michigan is likely to have highly regarded programs in at least 80 different majors, should you change major, you will likely find yourself in a major that is as highly regarded at Michigan as Econ or PoliSci.</p>
<p>Now, I saved my most important comment for last. YOU have a learning style. Does YOUR learning style fit better in a much smaller discussion format (say 15-25 students in an average first year class), or are you OK with lecture hall monologues that give you little opportunity to voice your opinion and receive critique? An iterative style of learning is what small Universities and LACs deliver in spades, and supplementary “Discussion Sections” at Large Universities simply cannot duplicate this.</p>
<p>As a student at WashU, I’ve found the above to be true. Generally, my class sizes have ranged from 7-50 people, with an average of 25 for the humanities classes and slightly larger for the science classes. The only classes I’ve had that were larger than 50 were introductory science classes: 250-300 per section for GenChem (500-600 total), organic chemistry (100-200) and intro biology. But these are all for the science classes. All my other classes, including my upper div science classes, have been 25-50 people, with several classes at 7-10 people. Nearly all of my classes were taught by professors who were both leaders in their field for research and great lecturers as well. I had two classes with graduate students, but the graduate students were highly competent and on top of things. Seriously though, the economics classes at WashU will be a lot smaller than the science classes, most likely in the 7-50 people range.</p>
<p>Also, if the OP is interested in doing research in economics as an undergraduate, I would advise going to WashU. 60% of the undergrads at WashU participate in independent research, and judging from the two symposia I’ve presented in, half of the undergrads do research in fields such as economics, anthropology, literature, and political science. The other half are the undergrads doing research in the engineering, physical, and biological sciences. WashU is top ranked in getting money for research funding, and a good portion of the money goes towards undergraduate research. Furthermore, the OP can email a professor in the field of economics he or she is interested in for any research opportunities in that field; the WashU professors I’ve known so far are very open and encouraging to supporting undergraduate research.</p>
<p>“Nearly all of my classes were taught by professors who were both leaders in their field for research and great lecturers as well. I had two classes with graduate students, but the graduate students were highly competent and on top of things.”</p>
<p>Are you a WashU student? How do you know?
Secondly, it’s WashU, and it’s a private institution. Class sizes are understandably going to be smaller than a large public like Michigan.</p>
<p>To the OP: Here is the page to the WashU Undergraduate Economics Department. It’s well-organized and comprehensive. It also includes a section for students who are aiming to attend a top economics program at graduate school-- if the OP is interested in pursuing academic econmics, this should be useful. So please check it out. You can probably go ahead and email the professors listed who are also advisors and forward any question you may have about the department to them. <a href=“http://economics.wustl.edu/undergraduate[/url]”>http://economics.wustl.edu/undergraduate</a></p>
<p>“Are you a WashU student? How do you know?
Secondly, it’s WashU, and it’s a private institution. Class sizes are understandably going to be smaller than a large public like Michigan.”</p>
<p>So what? Does that mean the quality of teaching BASIC intro concepts is going to be different?</p>
<p>Weird. I have a bunch of friends in China and I doubt they’ve heard of UMichigan or WashU. So international prestige wise, neither wins.
But we’re not even sure if the OP wants to be in academia (earn a PhD in economics) or go into industry/get employment afterwards. If the OP lets us know this would be very helpful.
If it’s academia, the OP should go to the school that he or she will be the happiest, where there is a lot of undergraduate research oppotunities, and where the professors are accessible. Imo WashU wins hands down for fitting these characteristics and for academic reputation. To provide a source from zenith who is a current WashU student:
</p>
<p>To me it seems like the consensus on this thread is:
If OP wants employment immediately after college, go to UMichigan.
If OP wants to get a PhD and go into academia, go to WashU in St. Louis.</p>
<p>They are both terrific(!) schools and were high on my daughter’s list had she not gotten in to her ED choice; in fact, she got in to Michigan’s honors program and had to withdraw because of her ED acceptance.</p>
<p>I don’t agree that all classes are onerously large at Michigan–upper division classes can be intimately-sized at CAl, UCLA, Michigan, UVA, UNC, etc. And an intro. class–Chem., Econ., will be large at either school. </p>
<p>I do believe that a difference between the two may be the social: Michigan is larger than Wash U., so one can pick from a larger pool of social possibilities (for some that is appealing). As well, Wash U. has a fair amount of academic zealousness, so one’s peers may be more cognizant and inventory-taking of each other’s performance. As well, in smaller the college community, the more knowledge there is of each other “drama.”</p>
<p>They are both great schools–you may have to step on to both college campuses, but, again, that may yield limited information until you’re on the campus as a student. </p>
<p>Ann Arbor is a college town, per se; St. Louis is not.</p>
<p>“If it’s academia, the OP should go to the school that he or she will be the happiest, where there is a lot of undergraduate research oppotunities, and where the professors are accessible. Imo WashU wins hands down for fitting these characteristics and for academic reputation.”</p>
<p>IMHO Michigan wins in these categories as well. The PA of MI is 4.4 and the PA of WUSTL is 4.1 However, there is no HANDS DOWN winner for either school.</p>