<p>This is all so relative. I would view this as: “which school could I never get into these days”, which leaves me (not you, not someone else, just me) with:</p>
<p>CHYMPS, where C = Caltech, + Wharton. These are the shock and awe schools. These to me are the “Super Elite”.</p>
<p>Then schools I might today have a shot at:</p>
<p>USNWR Top 20, LAC Top 6. These are the Elite.</p>
<p>this question is 100% subjective, and all answers are correct.</p>
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<p>Please tell me you did not sum two individual 25th percentile scores to create a 25th percentile overall…</p>
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<p>Actually, Stanford and Caltech were both founded in exactly the same year (1891). MIT is only slightly older, having been founded in 1861. And frankly speaking, of those 3 schools, Caltech was probably the first to attain ‘elite’ status, becoming a major center of Nobel-Prize caliber research by the 1920’s such as . In contrast, MIT didn’t become the high-status research center that it is today until the 1940’s, particularly because of the deep connections that MIT developed with the US government regarding military research spending for such projects as radar and the first digital computers to help fight WW2 and the Cold War. Stanford was the laggard, not becoming the high-status university that it is today until the 1950’s with the growth of Silicon Valley - which Stanford played a key role in sparking. In fact, for much of the first half of Stanford’s existence, Stanford suffered from erratic finances - having nearly gone bankrupt on several occasions - and its administrators openly fretted about a certain public university across the SF Bay that (at the time) was far more prestigious and lavishly funded. Times have certainly changed. </p>
<p>Hence, I think that, rather than Caltech, it is Stanford that is the most interesting case within modern-day higher education. How exactly did a school that merely a couple generations ago was a regional backwater of little repute and who suffered from severe budgetary problems become one of today’s most prestigious universities in the world? 100 years ago (hence, in the year 1910), it would have been laughable for somebody to turn down Harvard, Yale, or Princeton to attend Stanford, if, for no other reason, you couldn’t even have been sure that Stanford was going to survive financially to graduate you. (For example: in 1910, Stanford was still suffering from the financial reverses of the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake that damaged much of the campus, leaving much of Memorial Church in ruins - its renovation not being completed until 1917.) Nowadays, Stanford wins a healthy share of Harvard, Yale, and Princeton cross-admits. That’s arguably the greatest success story in modern higher education.</p>
<p>SATs aren’t a good measure for elite colleges. The ULTIMATE test and measure for being an elite college is the employability or maketability of their graduates as demonstrated by their salary scale. </p>
<p>And on that basis, Berkeley would outperform Rice, W&M, Vanderbilt, Williams or Amherst, and even popular research-led schools like JHU, Chicago, Northwestern, and 3 of the 8 Ivy League schools. Only an ELITE institution like UC Berkeley can afford to do that. </p>
<p>There are certainly more elite colleges than Berkeley such as HYPSM+C and Wharton, but to say Rice is more elite than Berkeley is completely unfounded, and a belief that is shared only by those who are ignorant about UC Berkeley, a school with an unmatched global reputation.</p>
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<p>Interesting. For some reason I assumed Stanford had been founded closer to when CA became a state and had already become one of the top schools in the country by the turn of the century.</p>
<p>RML:It seems like you keep insisting that the value of a college is overwhelmingly based on its perceived prestige among certain people (who may and may not be fully knowledgeable). So it there nothing to be said for the fact that certain schools excel purely academically over others, despite being overshadowed by other academically inferior universities partly due to factors such as size, location etc. I think, for undergrad, such is the case with many of the schools you listed below Cal in the “elite” category.</p>
<p>Looking at the SAT data posted by hawkette, it looks like after HYPSM+Caltech & Wharton, there is a small correlation between SATs and marketability. </p>
<p>Top schools based on SATs:</p>
<p>1470 , Caltech
1420 , Harvey Mudd
1400 , Yale</p>
<p>1390 , Harvard
1390 , Princeton
1390 , Pomona
1380 , MIT
1380 , Wash U
1370 , U Chicago
1360 , Columbia
1360 , Northwestern
1350 , Swarthmore</p>
<p>1340 , Duke
1340 , Tufts
1330 , Stanford
1330 , U Penn
1330 , Dartmouth
1330 , Vanderbilt
1330 , Bard
1320 , Brown
1320 , Rice
1320 , Notre Dame
1320 , Williams
1320 , Amherst
1320 , Vassar
1320 , W&L
1310 , Emory
1310 , Georgetown
1310 , Carleton
1310 , Claremont McK
1300 , Cornell
1300 , Bowdoin
1300 , Haverford
1300 , Wesleyan
1300 , Hamilton</p>
<p>Tops Schools based on Salary Scale of graduates/alumni:</p>
<p>Dartmouth College Ivy League $58,200 $129,000
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Engineering $71,100 $126,000
Harvard University Ivy League $60,000 $126,000
Harvey Mudd College Engineering $71,000 $125,000
Stanford University Engineering $67,500 $124,000
Princeton University Ivy League $65,000 $124,000
Colgate University Liberal Arts $51,900 $122,000
University of Notre Dame Private $55,300 $121,000
Yale University Ivy League $56,000 $120,000
University of Pennsylvania Ivy League $60,400 $118,000
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) Engineering $62,500 $116,000
Duke University Private $56,800 $116,000
Bucknell University Engineering $56,100 $116,000
Bucknell University Liberal Arts $56,100 $116,000
California Institute of Technology (CIT) Engineering $69,700 $115,000
Polytechnic Institute of New York University Engineering $62,700 $114,000
Lehigh University Engineering $57,400 $114,000
Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) Engineering $65,300 $113,000
University of California, Berkeley Engineering $57,100 $112,000
University of California, Berkeley State Schools $57,100 $112,000
Santa Clara University Private $58,000 $111,000
Georgetown University Private $57,000 $111,000
Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) Engineering $61,100 $110,000
Swarthmore College Liberal Arts $55,900 $110,000</p>
<p>^ I was unaware Colgate, Bucknell, and RPI were more marketable than your beloved Berkeley. I mean, come on… do you actually take those rankings seriously?</p>
<p>Alam1
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<p>I am saying that the application of the word elite to a college is not defined by the everage SAT score of the school, but by how the employers and the academic people view them. </p>
<p>Elite schools have great 1.) teaching staff, 2.) top-of-the-line facilities, 3.) good relationship with top employers and 4.) can market their graduates better than other competing schools. In all these measures, Berkeley would outperform Rice.</p>
<p>Alam1
I am not saying the data are accurate, but data are data. Sorry; but I have no proof to debunk that data. If you have any data that show otherwise, please care to provide them for our future reference. Until then, I’m inclined to trust Forbes’ data than your mere assertions and ranting.</p>
<p>RML, I am very tired of watching you post the Payscale ranking. It is highly questionable. Cost of living is not considered and only those who stop with bachelor’s degrees are counted. It is not a legitimate ranking.</p>
<p>^ It is also biased towards preprofessional majors such as business and engineering. Other majors would require additional education (Certain fields require a master’s degree for entry-level positions). I don’t trust the PayScale ranking and believe it is garbage.</p>
<p>Hawkette’s numbers are VERY dated. While the top private schools’ SATs have gone way up, Berkeley’s have not. Sorry, the HML, the measure of a school is in it’s student body. berkeley’s, on the undergrad level can not be considered elite unless we’re looking beyond the top 25.</p>
<p>Surely it’s not perfect and accurate. But it’s all we’ve got. If you have a more accurate data from your alma mater school, let’s try to update the data for your school. Otherwise, they will stay as they are.</p>
<p>Redroses, Berkeley is regarded as an ELITE institution by the employers and the academic people. Their opinion is sigficantly reliable and far more important than yours.</p>
<p>… are you ready to admit Colgate, Bucknell and RPI are more marketable than Berkeley. Dartmouth is amazing but one can safely say it isn’t the most marketable university. Your ranking measures SOMETHING… however, it does NOT measure marketability. The other posters have pointed out flaws with the ranking… I am simply looking at the top schools mentioned and it simply does not make sense.</p>
<p>Alam1, the marketability I referred to was for the graduates or alumni not for the school. So I was in effect saying that Dartmouth graduates are highly marketable. That’s different from saying, Dartmouth College is marketable.</p>
<p>And, as the data have implied, yes, I’m inclined to believe that - ON AVERAGE - RPI, Bucknell and Colgate graduates are registering slightly better salary scale than Cal grads do. Again, the data aren’t accurate, and they could change, but I have no data to debunk Forbes’ now. Do you?</p>
<p>However, you also have to consider how the academic people/scholars view these schools. Surely, Colgate graduates have registering slightly higher salary scale than Berkeley grads do, but the academic people still view Berkeley superior to Colgate. So, combining both factors, I’d say Berkeley is more elite than Colgate.</p>
<p>RML, facts please, undergrad facts. athe average undergrad Berkeley grad never leaves California to work.</p>
<p>RML and Hawkette, at least 3 of the schools on your lists are SAT optional (Bowdoin, Bates and Bard) so it bugs me to see them compared to the scores of the other schools.</p>
<p>Now, let’s apply those factors to Berkeley and Rice.</p>
<p>SAT Scores:
1320 , Rice
1210 , UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>Slight win for Rice.</p>
<p>Salary Scale:
University of California, Berkeley $57,100 $112,000
Rice University $57,900 $105,000 </p>
<p>Slight win for Berkeley</p>
<p>PA Score / Prestige as viewed by the top academic people:
4.7 Berkeley
3.9 Rice</p>
<p>Huge win for Berkeley</p>
<p>Overall, Berkeley wins!</p>