Which range of schools do YOU consider "elite"? HYPSM? Top 20?

[vonlost]

<p>^ And it’s all anecdotal, generally not useful information.</p>

[ThisCouldBeHeavn]

<p>Which is why you don’t make individual assumptions based on broad averages (though it should be noted that if hawkette’s numbers are sums of the averages of individual sections, as they seem to be, then they aren’t broad averages or any other valid statistic).</p>

[RML]

<p>just the facts, I never argued that on average, Rice has higher SAT scores than Berkeley. As what hawkette has shown, Rice has indeed higher average SAT scores than Berkeley. I was only arguing with 3 things:</p>

<p>1. That SAT is not an absolute measure of intelligence, and therefore, one cannot use it as the only reference when discussing about intelligence.</p>

<p>2. Berkeley does not weigh SATs as much as they do HS GPA.</p>

<p>In recent years, several prominent colleges have de-emphasized the SAT score in admissions. The University of California, for example, recently enacted an admissions rule whereby students ranked near the top of their high school class are admitted without regard to their SAT scores; a proposal to abandon the SAT entirely - replacing it with subject exams tied to California’s official high school curriculum - is under consideration
<a href=“http://elsa.berkeley.edu/users/cle/wp/WP45Rothstein.pdf[/url]”>http://elsa.berkeley.edu/users/cle/wp/WP45Rothstein.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>*
**The SAT is a weak predictor of grades at Berkeley and other universities. At UC, the SAT only explains about five percent of the variance in freshmen grades above that already accounted for high school grades.</p>

<p>**Berkeley students with SATs below 1000 are quite successful academically.</p>

<p>*The SAT has virtually no value in predicting graduation rates at Berkeley and other elite universities after controlling for factors such as insitutional resources and students’ socioeconomic status.
<a href=“http://www.equaljusticesociety.org/UC_Coalition_Report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.equaljusticesociety.org/UC_Coalition_Report.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>3. School Selectivity alone does not make the school elite.</p>

[RML]

<p>Schools that MIT considers of similar caliber / peer schools:</p>

<p>Harvard
Yale
UC Berkeley
Stanford
UPenn
Cornell
Chicago
[MIT</a> Suicides Reflect National Trends - The Tech](<a href=“http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N6/comp6.6n.html]MIT”>http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N6/comp6.6n.html)</p>

<p>Now if MIT thinks that Berkeley is a peer school, and MIT is elite, then Berkeley is elite. I think we all know that MIT is significantly way more credible than most of us here are.</p>

[Descartesz]

<p>

I couldn’t care less about selectivity. I will add the schools that I THINK are the most elite…When I think of ELITE, I don’t care about acceptance rate. i think more about name power.

Well then I suppose if you live in Pennsylvania, PSU has a lot of “name power” and, of course, it is only a Pennsylvania frame of reference that really matters with respect to this topic. Or perhaps it is only the views of Pennsylvanians who aren’t familiar with even their own state’s schools (like Haverford) who really are the appropriate arbiters of “elite.”</p>

[Torcher]

<p>I think more people would agree that the quality of undergraduate education at Rice is higher than that of Berkeley’s, as UCB is more known nationally and internationally for its graduate programs and focus. However, this thread is proclaiming the ‘elite’ schools and while Rice is an elite southern school probably only second to Duke, Berkeley probably wins the prestige factor nationwide. But both schools should be considered ‘elite’. Keep in mind that if Rice had the much larger applicant pool of the lower ivies/its other peers, the acceptance rate would be in the 10-15% range.</p>

[ThisCouldBeHeavn]

<p>

I think more people would agree that the quality of undergraduate education at Rice is higher than that of Berkeley’s

</p>

<p>Based on <strike>the SAT scores of the people teaching the class</strike> what?</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>Well, after reading all the debates on this thread, I believe that the group of schools that most people would agree are far above the others and would be considered the “elite schools” would be, in no particular order:</p>

<p>Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT</p>

<p>that is it</p>

<p>If you add one school to the above, then you are going to get five others that should be added, and the debate would never end…whereas most people would be satisfied that their favorite schools could be in the next highest level after these five elites.</p>

<p>over and out</p>

[warblersrule]

<p>

@JohnAdams12

that is it

Only on CC would one read such arrant (and arrogant) nonsense.</p>

<p>Take for example this article in the NY Times - [“Applications</a> to Elite Universities Rise”](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/education/01colleges.html]"Applications”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/education/01colleges.html)

Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth, Cornell, Stanford, M.I.T. and Duke each reported sharp increases in applications this year compared with last year.

</p>

<p>Or this paper by professors at the business schools at Chicago and Michigan - [“Are</a> Elite Universities Losing Their Competitive Edge?”](<a href=“http://www.nber.org/papers/w12245]"Are”>Are Elite Universities Losing Their Competitive Edge? | NBER) Among many others, it includes Carnegie Mellon, Columbia, and Cornell.</p>

<p>Or this article by Newsweek - [“America’s</a> 25 New Elite Ivies”](<a href=“http://www.newsweek.com/id/39401]"America’s”>America's 25 New Elite 'Ivies')

The nation’s elite colleges these days include more than Harvard, Yale and Princeton.

</p>

<p>Or this article from the Chronicle of Higher Education - [“Top</a> Students From Rural America Shun Elite Colleges”](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/Top-Students-From-Rural/65361/]"Top”>http://chronicle.com/article/Top-Students-From-Rural/65361/)

They took data from the National Center for Education Statistics’ Educational Longitudinal Survey of 2002 and examined the enrollments of students from different backgrounds at the top 50 universities and top 50 liberal-arts colleges, as ranked by U.S. News & World Report in 2004.

</p>

<p>Or this article by Students for Academic Freedom - [“Political</a> Bias in the Administrations and Faculties of 32 Elite Colleges and Universities”](<a href=“http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/1898/lackdiversity.html]"Political”>http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/1898/lackdiversity.html)

The Center generated a list of 32 elite colleges and universities. We included the entire Ivy League, premier liberal arts colleges like Amherst and Pomona, well-known technically-oriented universities like MIT, highly competitive public institutions like the University of California at Berkeley, and other elite private universities like Stanford.

</p>

<p>I could keep citing articles like that all day. It is not clear what the number of “elite colleges” is - but it is certainly clear that the number is greater than five.</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>Elite is another one of those words that is open to interpretation. However, once a standard has been set, it should be adhered to. One cannot conveniently include one university among the “elite” but then leave out a school that its peer. For example, including Cornell as an elite university but leaving out Cal (or vice versa) does not work. </p>

<p>I pesonally believe that in a nation as large, wealthy and developped as the US, with a complex network of 2,000 institutions of higher learning, there can easily be 50 colleges and universities that deserve the distinction of being elite. My list would include (but is not restricted to) the following schools:</p>

<p>PRIVATE RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES:
Boston College
Brown University
California Institute of Technology
Carnegie Mellon University
Columbia University
Cornell University
Dartmouth College
Duke University
Emory University
Georgetown University
Harvard University
Johns Hopkins University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
New York University
Northwestern University
Princeton University
Rice University
Stanford University
Tufts University
University of Chicago
University of Notre Dame
University of Pennsylvania
University of Southern California
Vanderbilt University
Washington University-St Louis
Yale University</p>

<p>PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES:
College of William and Mary
Georgia Institute of Technology
University of California-Berkeley
University of California-Los Angeles
University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill
University of Texas-Austin
University of Virginia
University of Wisconsin-Madison</p>

<p>LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGES:
Amherst College
Bowdoin College
Carleton College
Claremont McKenna College
Davidson College
Grinnell College
Haveford College
Middlebury College
Oberlin College
Pomona College
Swarthmore College
United States Air Force Academy
United States Military Academy
United States Naval Academy
Wellesley College
Wesleyan University
Williams College</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>warble, put up or shut up</p>

<p>you complain about my suggested 5 colleges but fail to mention even ONE other college that would be at the level of HYPSM.</p>

<p>it is your turn</p>

<p>we would like to see what colleges you claim are the “elite”</p>

[ansrox]

<p>only univ of nevada</p>

[pbleic]

<p>Alexandre:</p>

<p>I think you hit the nail on the head. This is a very judicious and thoughtful grouping of “elite” universities.</p>

[alam1]

<p>Umm JohnAdams, maybe I’ve been reading the wrong thread… but most people, except like high school freshman and RML and you, seem to think “elite” encompasses more than 5 or 6 schools. Many have said its top 20 and some have pointed out that its even more.</p>

[rocket6louise]

<p>

Well then I suppose if you live in Pennsylvania, PSU has a lot of “name power” and, of course, it is only a Pennsylvania frame of reference that really matters with respect to this topic.

</p>

<p>Look, I hate Penn State, but they have huge name power EVERYWHERE. They have one of the largest and most active alumni associations in the world. If you are a PSU grad, doors open for you. I think that helps put it into the elite category along with the other state schools I mentioned</p>

[kvilledeac]

<p>Looking at the US News University rankings I’d describe the top 23 as elite, with Cal being the only public and Georgetown being the last in. My logic was that Cal needs to be in, and that there is a dropoff in prestige between Gtown and UVA/UCLA/USC.</p>

[warblersrule]

<p>

@JohnAdams12

you complain about my suggested 5 colleges but fail to mention even ONE other college…we would like to see what colleges you claim are the “elite”

On the contrary, I most certainly did. If you had indeed read the thread in its entirety, you would have seen that I posted my opinion earlier. Unlike some other posters, I do not see the point in posting my opinion ad nauseam.</p>

<p>

@warblersrule86

Any of the Ivies and [CC</a> top universities](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cc-top-universities/]CC”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cc-top-universities/) can be considered elite. Things are murkier with LACs, but at least the top 20 or so.

</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Look, I hate Penn State, but they have huge name power EVERYWHERE. They have one of the largest and most active alumni associations in the world. If you are a PSU grad, doors open for you. I think that helps put it into the elite category along with the other state schools I mentioned

</p>

<p>This is a perfect example of how it’s all regional beyond HYPSM.</p>

<p>RML’s US experience is mostly California-based (parents at Stanford, wife at Berkeley) - and so he concludes that everywhere in the US, everyone reveres Berkeley as just below HYPSM and doesn’t believe hawkette’s assertion that indeed, in many parts of the east coast, W&M would have an equivalent, if not better, name and Berkeley doesn’t have strong knowledge beyond vague liberal-San-Fran associations.</p>

<p>r6louise’s life experience is East Coast based (PA or vicinity from what I understand) - and so she concludes that everywhere in the US, Penn State’s name “opens doors.” Well, yeah, if you live in PA. Penn State doesn’t particularly open any doors in the midwest – Mich, Wisc, UIUC, and even Ohio State, Iowa and Indiana would open far more doors than Penn State. It would be ludicrous to think of it as a “better” choice than most of the other Big 10 state flagships, or “elite” or having “big name power” in any way.</p>

<p>What will it take til people realize that “elite” and “prestige” are regional, and stop pretending that the rest of the country necessarily thinks the way the people in your region think?</p>

[rocket6louise]

<p>

r6louise’s life experience is East Coast based (PA or vicinity from what I understand) - and so she concludes that everywhere in the US, Penn State’s name “opens doors.” Well, yeah, if you live in PA. Penn State doesn’t particularly open any doors in the midwest – Mich, Wisc, UIUC, and even Ohio State, Iowa and Indiana would open far more doors than Penn State. It would be ludicrous to think of it as a “better” choice than most of the other Big 10 state flagships, or “elite” or having “big name power” in any way.

I have relatives in ohio, california, and even hawaii who say Penn State opened doors for them. There are alums everywhere and they will help other alums over outsiders</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>So will every other major state school, r6l. Penn State isn’t notable in that regard. I grew up in PA. I GET how people think about Penn State there. But once you move away – you just don’t see it as that big of a deal, esp given the loyalties that other state flagships have and their alumni networks too.</p>