<p>I had to look it up to remind myself that DODGEBALL TARGETS means anti-Greek and anti-sports.</p>
<p>thanks guys, I never thought I would get this much feedback</p>
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I've given you examples of colleges cracking down on conservative speech. Could a liberal be sued for stepping on an American flag? Sure. Did that happen? No. At SFSU, students were put through a stupid legal battle for protesting Hezbollah.
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<p>Calling a legal battle against conservatives "stupid" doesn't prove your point.</p>
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What else do you need? Do I have to catalogue every single instance of political discrimination just to prove that conservatives have a more difficult time of it?
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<p>Actually, YES, you have to. At least get a good representation of the outcomes of both liberal and conservative causes. You very well know that quoting ONLY anti-conservative cases is far from comprehensive or scientific. You're just like quoting ONLY one or two criminal convictions against whites and then concluding that there's widespread racial discrimination against them on the part of state or federal police everywhere.</p>
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I have given you two major pieces of evidence to backup my point namely, the predominance of Democrats over Republicans in college faculties.
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<p>It's not "major" just because you say it is. we need a stretch of logic to convince ourselves that TWO cases = predominence of Democrats over Republicans in college faculties. Quote me a broad and peer-reviewed study.</p>
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I've given you my evidence. You've shown me no data that contradicts mine. I think that given this, it is more than reasonable for a student to care how liberal/conservative his college is.
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<p>I don't have to. You do. You're the one trying to prove a point, so the burden of proof is on you. I'm just trying to disprove your point and all I have to do is find problems with your argument.</p>
<p>Alex and screwitlah, I have to agree with Alex that politics of the campus have to be considered in college selection, especially if the majority of the student body makes its politics an issue, and perhaps more importantly if the faculty does. And it does appear that the overwhelming majority of campuses have liberal faculties--there have been studies done on this, for example, see the results of a 2002 survey which found that more than 90% of faculty at the leading universities were democrats, and that they "teach in disciplines where politics matters the most":
NCPA</a> - Daily Policy Digest - Few College Professors are Republicans
And yes, there are numerous cases of Christians and conservatives at universities whose right to free speech has been challenged, as Alex has mentioned, for example see:
ADF:</a> University Life - Alliance Defense Fund - Defending Our First Liberty</p>
<p>People should pick a college where they fit and the best way to figure that out is to VISIT the school, both in the summer while on vacation and during the school year when the students are there.....and get a real good look at the students and the faculty and see what is going down. Away from the tour guides.</p>
<p>If you are a judgmental, gum snapping, superficial spoiled brat you may not want to attend a school of serious academic endeavors (left or right), and if you are a wiry nerd who is sports challenged and prefers to congregate with people and discuss poetics, you better not attend a jock school or social stigma school (like Washington and Lee as ONE example) . The wonderful thing is that there are over 3,000 colleges to choose from and all of them are unique and there is a place for every student who desires to go to college. </p>
<p>If you are a violinist at the Oberlin Conservatory does it matter whether Stanford is higher ranked than Duke? Of course not. Its a ludicrous argument.</p>
<p>If you are a budding microbiologist then it may matter where you go.....depends on what they offer and scholarships and maybe a famous faculty member who can mentor you etc. Should that be Duke or MIT or UChicago or Yale or where ever? Who knows? Depends on the student.</p>
<p>And I seriously doubt a student headed to Warren Wilson will make the mistake of ending up at Grove City College. And vice versa.</p>
<p>which schools are most libertarian</p>
<p>Well then what would would you conclude from findings that college faculties are far left-of-center?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/">http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/</a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html</a></p>
<p>Can you prove that political speech of liberal students is stifled? Can you prove that it is stifled as often as that of conservative students? Even anecdotal evidence trumps no evidence.</p>
<p>Furthermore, my original point, in my very first post was that there it is reasonable for students to consider politics when choosing a college. Do you contest this or not?</p>
<p>Ah, thanks for the backup kentuckymom.</p>
<p>Isn't it interesting that the most notably "liberal" colleges seem to place such a high value and emphasis on their "diversity"...of spiritual beliefs, sexual practices, backgrounds, ideas, ethnicity, race, etc.,...except, that is, for conservative ideas and the beliefs of evangelical Christians. In other words, they strive to emphasize their tolerance and acceptance of everybody--except those who don't agree with their liberal ideology, and those who don't agree are labeled as the "intolerant" ones, or as described by John Stuart Mill, the "stupid" ones. So does it follow that they value students and faculty who tolerate everybody except those who they feel are intolerant?(!) If colleges truly tried to practice real tolerance and diversity but placed most of their emphasis on higher education as the ultimate goal, we wouldn't need to be discussing labels of them as "liberal" or "conservative".</p>
<p>kentuckymom, I think you're asking for all colleges to be moderate. There are so many kinds of students, so it's good that there are conservative schools and liberal schools to accommodate those diverging from the middle.</p>
<p>I think your characterization of liberal colleges might apply conversely to conservative schools like BYU, Bob Jones or Oral Roberts. Which liberal schools are you thinking of as being intolerant towards conservatives? I suspect that Oral Roberts would be intolerant of those choosing to not participate in religious services.</p>
<p>most libertarian = UChicago ?</p>
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Well then what would would you conclude from findings that college faculties are far left-of-center?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/">http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/</a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html</a></p>
<p>Can you prove that political speech of liberal students is stifled? Can you prove that it is stifled as often as that of conservative students? Even anecdotal evidence trumps no evidence.</p>
<p>Furthermore, my original point, in my very first post was that there it is reasonable for students to consider politics when choosing a college. Do you contest this or not?
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<p>My contention is that you did not in any way prove, and still has not proved that there's widespread discrimination against conservatives on college campuses. Don't deny that it was a point you were trying to make with those links to thefire.org and all that. Your post is up there for all to see.</p>
<p>As I've repeatedly said, all I need to do to disprove your point about anti-conservative discrimination is point out the flaws in your argument and the inadequacy of your examples. Prove that, to a satistically significant extent, liberals aren't as stifled as conservatives. That's the very first and basic standard of proof you need to satisfy before you think about asking ME for proof. I'm not the one putting forward a case here; if you drop your case then naturally my opposition has no purpose.</p>
<p>If the student deems politics to be an important factor in his selection, then power to him. Whatever makes him feel comfortable; I have no say in that. My beef is with your sweeping generalization of colleges purely on the basis of your one-sided selection of examples.</p>
<p>Yes Georgetown is very very catholic and very conservative.</p>
<p>There is no discrimination against conservatives in schools, it is simply the fact that conservativism lends itself to closed mindedness and imposition of your ideas on others and taking away human rights-all of that is in opposition to what you are supposed to be learning in college-open mindedness, intellectualism (conservatives are wary of intellectualism). There is no discrimination, but maybe there should be. Jan Falk, LCSW</p>
<p>logicaldog, you're not making logical sense. (ironically.) When liberals get passionate they could be just as close-minded and tyrannical.</p>
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Prove that, to a satistically significant extent, liberals aren't as stifled as conservatives. That's the very first and basic standard of proof you need to satisfy before you think about asking ME for proof.
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<p>I can't prove that liberal stifling does not exist. I can't prove that anything does not exist. You need to prove that there is an equal amount of stifling...</p>
<p>and you still did not answer my previous question. </p>
<p>"What would would you conclude from findings that college faculties are far left-of-center?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/">http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/</a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html</a>"</p>
<p>I'm interested in what you make of it.</p>
<p>I DON'T need to prove that there is an equal amount of stifling. don't you get it? I'm not the one trying to make a point at all. All I'm concerned about is how inadequate your argument is - I'm the opposition. You don't ask the opposition for proof - you provide the proof for your case. You're the one who has been trying to make a case. I don't even HAVE a case.</p>
<p>I'm not answering anything until you can prove your point... which you have acknowledged that you can't. don't try to change the topic.</p>
<p>It is my experience that it is not differences in opinion that are objected to. Most college students and professors are open to discussion and debate. What they object to is intolerance and closed-mindedness. Additionally, unlike race and socio-economic background political opinion is subject to change and evolve and hence building a class around it seems an impossible prospect.</p>
<p>I think some liberals equate conservatism with resistance to change, which they then construe as being closed-minded to change. Some liberals may also equate religious conservatism with resistance to new discoveries made in science, such as the age and origin of the universe, new fossil discoveries, causes of homosexuality, etc. Liberals seem to think they are more open to such new ideas.</p>
<p>Correct, vossron. The problem is that a lot of liberal professors equate anything that is not in agreement with them as closed mindedness. They love to throw out labels...pejorative labels at others and fail to see the stick in their own eyes. Hypocrites.</p>
<p>Or they have a snarling condescending tone and then try and camouflage their own prejudices against students on their exams and papers finding fault with little items while overlooking glaring problems in the work of liberal students. I have seen it time and time again. I read "A" papers from liberal students that were very poor work but which gave the buzzwords the prof was looking for. I read outstanding papers from conservatives which criticized positions he/she had taken and they were a sea of red ink often for highly subjective issues. Appealing to the Dean does not always work and often backfires.</p>
<p>So many conservatives are left with the inglorious choice of presenting papers that are antithetical to their own perspectives but which support that of the professor just to "get the grade", or committing academic suicide.</p>
<p>Some schools are worse than others. Not all liberal profs are like this, however. But a high enough percentage that conservative groups on campus often huddle together to strategize...."avoid this prof or that prof....drop this class or that class...or here is how you get around that sob" kind of talk. And that is most unfortunate.</p>
<p>A lot of liberal ideals are myopic. They presume that any point of view contrary to their own is wrong, narrow minded or God Forbid "discriminatory." They love to label people as "nazis" or "racists" or whatever, when that is often a complete mischaracterization of the conservative position. Are there some conservatives with unfortunate ideas or values? Yes of course there are. Are there some religious people out there who are intolerant of others? Of course there are. Should they learn to be more accepting and tolerant? Yes, in the sense they have to learn to get along and be civil...and not make obnoxious commentary etc or be ad hominem about their views. But they are under no obligation to accept as TRUTH that which they believe is wrong, whether its a political or moral issue. Opposing abortion, for example, does not make you an intolerant mysogynistic chauvinist pig. Its all in how you present the issue of course.</p>
<p>The point is that it would serve students well to pick a campus that is most likely to foster their own personal growth and development and not make them so unhappy. Its not worth the money to be very unhappy at a school where you dont fit in, left or right. Which is why I would avoid an extremist view one way or another, and instead pick a school that is tolerant of many views and you can find a sufficient number of people with like minded views while learning to be civilized and tolerant of others with opposing views. "Agree to disagree" would be the motto here.</p>
<p>But I have seen as many intolerant obnoxious people on the left as I have seen on the right. So its not a one way street for discrimination and intolerance.</p>