Which top national universities are most focused on undergraduates?

<p>NorCalDad-
I think my logic is sound. Time is quantifiable and finite. Once it is spent, it is gone. It does not replenish itself. Think of a professor's time with students like a pie. You divide the pie to serve your students. If some of the pie goes to graduate students, then there is less for undergraduates. Why is this so hard to grasp? It is as obvious as two minus one equals one.</p>

<p>Mindsets are hard to break. Myths die hard.</p>

<p>Student faculty ratio calculations...do they include grad students in the numerator?</p>

<p>To find schools focused on undergraduates:</p>

<p>-- Look for low student-to-faculty ratios for undergraduates
-- Look at how much money-per-undergraduate goes towards undergraduate life (dorms, etc.), academics (profs, research grants, etc.)</p>

<p>It doesn't matter if 70% of the student body is graduate or post-graduate; what matter is what the above two points are like for the remaining 30% (undergrads).</p>

<p>lolabelle-
A student faculty ratio of 20 might mean there are 20 undergrad students per faculty member but it might not reveal that each faculty member is devoting only 50% of their attention to undergraduates.</p>

<p>Expenditures per student can fluctuate a lot because of factors that have nothing to do with faculty attention and resources that are directly beneficial to students.</p>

<p>Don't you agree?</p>

<p>That's why I said find out the student-faculty ratio for UNDERGRADUATES specifically. This data is available on many school's websites, as well as upon request. I did this research before I picked my own undergrad school years ago. I ended up applying only to schools with a 11:1 or lower ratio. (I ended up going to a small university that had an LAC-like 9:1 ratio.)</p>

<p>Absolutely, expenditures per student will vary depending on their academic interests (bio research will necessitate more $ than literary criticism); also on whether or not the student seeks it out. When it comes to money spent on undergraduate-teaching faculty, it's always of benefit to the undergrad student!</p>

<p>I think it's important to point out that JHU and Chicago are self-consciously designed as top-heavy research U's, following the model of the German research institution. JHU was first, Chicago was second, I don't know if any other schools talk about designing their school that way. The German fad sort of came and went, I gather, because JH and Chicago are significantly newer than a lot of the "prestige" schools.</p>

<p>Chicago has a particularly unique history with its relationship to undergraduates because of RM Hutchins (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hutchins)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hutchins)&lt;/a>, but for the sake of this argument I'll bracket that thought. I would also be willing to discuss in excruciating detail why and how Chicago places an emphasis on undergraduate life and education, and would be happy to do so in a PM, but I want to turn this from a Chicago-specific argument into an argument about top-heavy schools in general.</p>

<p>What I do want to indicate, though, is that there is a reason to choose a top-heavy graduate school with a small undergraduate base like Chicago or Hopkins (or Columbia or Harvard or CalTech or XYZ state). For me, at least, it represents the best of both worlds-- a smallish undergraduate social network inside the resources and opportunities of a large university. As an undergraduate, advancement into graduate-level classes is easy, as is becoming a research assistant or an intern. My friends at top-heavy schools have had research opportunities and the personal attention that goes along with it fall into their laps. I might not feel the same kind of attention level of "Hey You, Undergraduate!" that I would had I gone to Dartmouth, but my course catalog is way, way bigger.</p>

<p>collegehelp,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Think of a professor's time with students like a pie. You divide the pie to serve your students. If some of the pie goes to graduate students, then there is less for undergraduates. Why is this so hard to grasp? It is as obvious as two minus one equals one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Did you take the number of students into account? So what if my prof has 10 graduate students and 3 undergrads? As far as my undergrad class goes, there are only 2 others. It's absurd to somehow think I'd be worse than having a prof with 180 undergrads with 20 grads (there you go the high 90% for "undergrad focus"..lol!). Look at your list again; nobody ever told you they have HUGE classes at UC Irvine before? If you are gonna define "undergrad focus" as simply large percentage of students as undergrads, that's fine although I don't see how that's helpful. But if you want to start talking about time available for undergrad, then please take the number of students into account. There's no myth here; you were simply the one that didn't get it and started making bold statement based on so little.</p>

<p>I doubt this analysis can work. It gives numbers that are hard to interpret, and provides no context. How much attention is paid to undergrads is a matter of institutional culture, and that may not track that closely with the ratio of undergrad to grad students. So the effort may be doomed from the start. As many have pointed out, one can have a huge place with a small faculty and not many grad students. Such an institution might have little focus on students-grad or undergrad- at all. To assume that, if there are relatively fewer grad students then the school must be focussed on undergrads is not reasonable.</p>

<p>To get to details. </p>

<p>Any faculty member would tell you that working with undergrads is much more time consuming than working with grad students. Undergrads are doing everything for the first time, so they need far more attention and guidance. They run up against obstacles very quickly and get stuck. They have other commitments and courses outside their majors that keep them from focusing on their scholarly work in the field. </p>

<p>So I suspect that the ratio of time would be strongly the opposite of what the OP proposes. For a faculty member who was doing research with an an equal number of undergrads and grad students, I suspect the typical time allocation might be 3 times as much with the undergrads as the grad students. For teaching courses, the difference is even greater. Teaching a grad seminar is easy, set the outline and readings, and the students teach themselves. Undergrads are a different world. Preparing a new undergrad course is extremely time consuming, and teaching it is far more work than teaching a course on the same topic to grad students-no comparison.</p>

<p>Deducting professional students from the denominator obscures the issue. Most faculty in Arts and Sciences primarily teach professional students. On the other hand, many professional schools rely on arts and sciences faculty to teach some core courses to their students- statistics is a common example. Many faculty in Business schools have lots of undergrads (ever heard of Wharton people?) The masters degree is often a professional degree while the PhD is a scholarly degree. Thus, at a business school, one would subtract the MBA candidates, but not the PhD candidates. There are similar distinctions in law, education, social work, nursing and engineering schools.</p>

<p>The proportion of undergrad enrollment in schools of engineering varies widely across universities. Many medical school faculty either teach undergrad courses, or have undergrads enrolled in their graduate courses. </p>

<p>Other than class time-which is the least important aspect of college teaching- graduate, professional, and undergraduate students all share libraries, labs, gyms, and other resources.
Just because they are professional students does not mean they disappear.</p>

<p>Finally, a note on the numbers. If I understand correctly, the first list gave percent of undergrad degrees calculated over all degrees conferred and the second list was undergrad over degrees less professional degrees. The numerator should have remained the same, while denominator was reduced by the number of professional degrees. So the proportion should have stayed the same or increased in every case. However, some of the schools, the proportion of undergrad degrees was higher when considering all degrees than when excluding professional degrees (Harvard, Hopkins). How is that possible?</p>