Which top schools value SAT/ACT scores over GPA/rank?

Parents Forum
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<p>S got back ACT scores this week, and got a 35, which is 99+ percentile. He had previously gotten 2220 on the SAT, which is 99% percentile. However, his class rank is right at the top 10%, at a competitive suburban NJ school, and depending on his grades this marking period might end up at 10.1% or 9.9% or thereabouts. He has decent ECs (esp. drama, mock trial) and awards (National History Day, mock trial). He is taking the most rigorous course load possible at his school, with about a 3.5 unweighted GPA (including one C+).</p>

<p>I think he would accomplish more at a better college, where his peers are better students and study more than party. However he wouldn't be happy at a school that is ultra-competitive and everyone studies all the time. He is interested in Econ and/or Poli Sci, and is considering going to law school. He wants a small to medium sized school (but not tiny), is not an athlete and doesn't care about sports at all, and prefers that Greek presence on campus be minimal.</p>

<p>We just visited several schools over spring break, and he liked Cornell, Middlebury, Vassar, Tufts, George Washington, and U. Richmond (in that order). He didn't like Colgate, American, or Syracuse. I'm afraid that several of the schools he liked may be out-of-reach because of his GPA/rank. Does anyone have any insight on the relative importance of test scores vs. GPA at these schools? </p>

<p>What data other than % of class in the Top 10% would be helpful to determine this? When I look at various accepted student stats, I see very few kids with his test scores and GPA/rank combination.</p>

<p>We plan to visit TCNJ, which will probably be his safety (it has rolling admissions). </p>

<p>Any suggested other schools in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic region? I expect we won't qualify/apply for FA, if that makes a difference.</p>

<p>Also, should he submit both SAT & ACT scores, or just the ACT scores which are better?</p>

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<p>We are in much the same boat, but probably worse off GPAwise. Schools that look less ominous from the GPA point of view looking at our Naviance data: Brandeis, Skidmore and Boston College (noone over 1400 rejected though there were some waitlists), Rochester (everyone in over 1400/1600), Colgate, Northeastern and George Washington only a couple of rejections for over 1350/1600. Sarah Lawrence had a huge variety of SAT scores and grades, but not enough datapoints for me to tell how much could be deduced from it - especially as it’s an SAT optional school. There are some good state schools have more GPA scatter but fairly high average SAT scores like Michigan and Wisconsin - honors colleges may make them feel more like top colleges. </p>

<p>I think I’d send just the ACT score. Is it with writing? Some schools will want that.</p>

<p>Okay and this is really funny - I’ve now discovered which college really has Tufts syndrome - it’s not Tufts - it’s Emory. ALL the top students especially top SAT scorers were waitlisted. Top SATs with lowish grades were rejected.</p>

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<p>^ Emory does this crazy postcard interest-tracking thing.</p>

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<p>I think he would be a strong applicant at Vassar and being male would help his application.</p>

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<p>At our school nobody with a weighted GPA less than 97 has been accepted according to our scattergrams. The SAT spread is fairly wide. Unfortunately my son’s GPA is 96, so we are assuming Vassar is a reach. If the OP’s C+ was early on, and grading is generally rigorous, I agree Vassar for her son is probably a better chance than for mine. (Don’t know rank for my son, but believe it to be closer to top 25% than top 10%.)</p>

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<p>S had 2400 in SAT but a little low ranking (5 to 6%) and very decent ECs, but he got rejected for a few Ivy schools. I think School rank/GPA is most important for them. BUT a good essay seems to be most important. I see a lot kids has lower SAT and GPA but they get into early round admission-- can’t tell why.
The reason why ranking is important is that they think you have challenge yourself enough even you have lower test scores
As per school officer said “we are reading your application not yourself” So how you package yourself is what they know about you-- try to use application package to cover your weakness.
Yes FA is also a killer in our case
BTW, 2220 SAT is pretty good. I’d submit both</p>

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<p>Went to Williams last week, where the admission rep who also gave one of the best presentations I have heard in a longggg time, stated that they look at the transcript first as it is representative of what the student did for the past 3-3.5 years. He said that if the transcript is not good,they don’t even look at the SAT scores because at this point it the SAT scores don’t matter.</p>

<p>Good SAT scores will not make up for lackluster grades. It just sends a message that perhaps the student is really bright not continually working up to their potential.</p>

<p>I also did the Middlebury info session last week where the rep also stated that the scores matter, but not more than the GPA.</p>

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<p>There are lots of perspectives out there.
Way back when, can’t remember where, I heard an adcom comment on the benefit of high scores as indicators of ‘late bloomers’ who have the ability. This adcom felt that challenge to the college was to spark the potential.
I believe the context was, if either scores or GPA was high, which is better.</p>

<p>Your challenge is to find those schools.</p>

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<p>Your list is starting to shape up nicely, I think you already have a spread of reaches, matches and safties. Your sons stats are not unusual at all for competitive NJ HS, so have you had a meeting yet with the GC to get suggestions? I don’t think his rank will disqualify him from the schools you mentioned. Its alway tougher to find the safties. Given what you’ve written, I would suggest Union, Hamilton, Lafayette for safties.</p>

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<p>Hamilton and Lafayette should not be considered safeties for a 3.5 UW GPA; don’t know about Union. When looking for safe bets, I always favor taking the weakest criteria and going from there.</p>

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<p>i think for top all of it matters, the applicant pool is really tough. It is important to be in the top 10percent at least. So if he could work a little harder and get into that range.</p>

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<p>Don’t forget Wake, Vandy, Georgetown and Davidson.</p>

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<p>If you like schools such as Middlebury and Vassar, but you think your grades are not quite high enough, consider looking beyond the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic states. You may have a slightly better “reach” chance at Carleton than at Middlebury or Vassar and wind up at an academically equal school (or even better, depending on the major). In the slightly less selective category, compare midwest schools like Oberlin, Grinnell, or Macalester to NE schools like Hamilton and Colgate. My impression is that the former group is less preppy, more intellectual in atmosphere than the latter.</p>

<p>With his stats, he would have a very good shot at Colorado College as a “match” school. If he liked Middlebury for the natural setting and the skiing, CC offers an even more breathtaking setting and better skiing. It’s not completely out in the sticks, either. It is a solid LAC that attracts many high-scoring students who also apply to schools like Middlebury and Dartmouth. </p>

<p>One advantage of the mid-western colleges that most of them give out many “merit” scholarships, meaning you can get a $5-10K discount even if you do not qualify for need-based aid. These schools have excellent records for grad school placements too.</p>

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<p>Lafayette is definitely a possibility. S attended a CTY program there a few years ago. I think it is a match rather than a safety. But that is fine - I’m looking for match and reach schools, since I think he’ll have enough safeties already. </p>

<p>Hamilton is about 1750 students. S didn’t want a school quite that small. </p>

<p>Several people suggested schools outside of the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic. From what I’ve read on CC it does seem to be a bit easier to get into top schools outside of the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic. S has expressed a preference to stay in our general geographic area, but I’ll raise the point for him to consider. Schools in other regions would be harder to visit. The mid-west seems more appealing to me personally than the south - DH and I are both originally from the mid-west, but S has always lived in NJ.</p>

<p>Any other school suggestions?</p>

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<p>Cornell is iffy. Their admissions officers specifically say that they care more about GPA than test scores, and they seem to mean it. And your son’s interests are such that he would most likely be applying to the College of Arts and Sciences at Cornell, which is not easy to get into in any event.</p>

<p>If proximity to Washington, DC is a plus, your son might consider adding the University of Maryland at College Park to his list. They care more about test scores than grades (otherwise, they would never have admitted my son, who had reasonably high SAT scores but did not get top grades in high school), and the university is close enough to DC that students can do part-time internships during the school year (with careful schedule planning, of course).</p>

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<p>“Which top schools value SAT/ACT scores over GPA/rank?”</p>

<p>This particular question can be answered.</p>

<p>For each school of interest, google its “common data set” and look at section C7. You’ll see something like this:



Academic                 Very Important  Important  Considered  Not Considered</p>

<p>Class rank                                   X
Academic GPA                  X<br>
Standardized test scores                     X

Not all schools publish this data, but most do.</p>

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<p>You might consider UChicago, but for a slightly different reason. They do not have too much of a concern for test scores, but nor do they have too much of a concern for GPA. They are most interested in whether or not students have challenged themselves in the most rigorous coursework available, teacher recommendations, and their “uncommon” essays. Another school with a similar approach is Reed College.</p>

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<p>Chicago has been more “conventional” in its admissions in recent years. I do second Reed for true holistic review.</p>

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<p>

Thankfully, not in the case of S1.</p>

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<p>^ That’s good to hear. I was just going by the ongoing dean/strategic aims controversy, and anecdotal evidence–I know a lot of “straight” Asian students (high stat but not particularly quirky; one girl’s first choice was Vanderbilt and she’s really more of that type) who get into Chicago.</p>